CarpForum - Fishing Forum
   [Log-In] or [Register]

Advertise to thousands of anglers a day!  Click HERE to see how
      Home            Search       Help / FAQs   Rules / Usage 
Who's Online Member List      Articles           Gallery           Weather     
  New Posts: 0
 New Posts  Fermenting prepared particle?
 [Log-In]  [Register]
vossy1
Posts: 6624
vossy1
   Old Thread  #17 26 Mar 2025 at 7.09am  0  Login    Register
In reply to Post #13
Id steer away from adding yeasts as you will end up turning the bait to fast if you are only just starting

I suppose I better mention why I suggested yeast to those reading, you'll know this, I'm not lecturing, a decade of obsessional brewing in days gone past and I remember some of it

The op mentioned buying prepared particles, and should they not be stabilised by additives, the chances are they will either have been cooked in the can or packaged hot enough to have the same effect of sanitation. This means they will probably contain very little oxygen as its driven off by boiling, and it's vital for yeast metabolism/reproduction. Adding yeast would simply give you a better head start of a yeast fermentation rather than bacterial fermentation or spoiling. In a depleted oxygen state you'd also be less unlikely to get a 'racing fermentation', though naturally it could happen at the latter stages and with higher temps.

If you are adding a fair bit of water chlorine will also inhibit growth so either use bottled or thrash some tap water to drive some of it off. If you want to add air (which will aid fermentation), a drill plaster mixer paddle is a great way to do it, just hold a inch under the surface and give it some blasts, don't shred your mix though...lol

My own other ramblings

Typically when used to go to France (in hot weather)

Day 1, afternoon, cook 25kg (dry weight) particles, let cool overnight with a inch of water over the top of the particles (though I'd sieve/cool/use on the 1st day, if so inclined.
Day 2, morning the liquid has turned into a nice thick starch 'particle like frogspawn' and probably already fermenting, though few signs of bubbles. Come the end of that night it'd be bubbling away nicely.
Day 3, by mid avo it'd be slowing down, little smell
Day 4, afternoon slight sour smell
Day 5 smells like sick

Depending on use we'd have other batches on the go to overlap use, some years when slow it'd just be the one initial batch hence using at all stages. My personal preference in prep is for Day 2 and Day 4, I like it slightly on the turn. We had occaison where we'd run out of the older and move to the newer and bites would drop off, hence my preference and if I were arresting it for future use that'd be my choice. Startling results were had when we used a row boat and introduced the good 2" of sludge from the particle empty 75ltr tub onto the spot, I'm fairly convinced this soup is probably more effective than just the particle and that we missed a trick in not blitzing some particles so we always had some. I all probability this also contained most of the yeast...hmm.
Darkieallard
Posts: 4812
   Old Thread  #16 26 Mar 2025 at 2.34am  0  Login    Register
In reply to Post #15
Thankyou for your valuable information, I'm going to get some tigers and maize soaking when i finish work
jhhilton1983
Posts: 1797
jhhilton1983
   Old Thread  #15 25 Mar 2025 at 11.47pm  0  Login    Register
In reply to Post #14
It would be perfect and would stop the lid blowing off.

For me I would introduce a big hit of salt if I wanted to extend the shelf life... I'm talking 20% of the total weight. This in essence would change the PH enough stabilize it for a while

Huge amount of variable's - Which particles, how broken down are the sugars, what and how much yeast gets introduced, temps, available oxygen etc etc. As said all trial and error till you get something that works for you.

I have worked with yeasts for a good few years now and even in the food and drink industry it hard to control and get same results
Darkieallard
Posts: 4812
   Old Thread  #14 25 Mar 2025 at 11.25pm  0  Login    Register
In reply to Post #13
Would a large brewers bucket with a Brewing Airlock (bubbler) work?

Also how long would the particles last in airtight bucket without freezing.
jhhilton1983
Posts: 1797
jhhilton1983
   Old Thread  #13 25 Mar 2025 at 7.55pm  0  Login    Register
In reply to Post #1
As said, as long as no preservatives have been added you will be ok.

Id steer away from adding yeasts as you will end up turning the bait to fast if you are only just starting. Id buy your prepared particle fresh... stick it in a big bucket, with plenty of room left over, in the garden with as much of the liquid as possible, top up liquid to cover it and add 10% of the weigh of particle of sugar, glucose or something similar. Leave it open for a few hours and stir every 30mins, then bang on the lid and let it sit for a few days ideally in a sunny spot in the garden - keep checking it a few times a day and once the lid is bulging open and check.

A extremely rough guide (subject to opinion)
Fizzy/ yeasty smell = Fermentation
Vinegar smell = too far gone


Total alternate way to do it...... search for garlic hemp recipe on here
SteveyT
Posts: 41
SteveyT
   Old Thread  #12 25 Mar 2025 at 7.32pm  0  Login    Register
Just in addition to what I said about the home made ferment starter. If you wanted to simplify the process you could just go and buy some EM1 liquid. Just put a few ml of that into your particles to start it fermenting. Not sure how well it will work on prepped particle though. I've seen people do it with dry cut maize without even cooking it. Can Be left for months, probably years if kept submerged. Because the insides of the maize are already exposed they soften pretty quickly
vossy1
Posts: 6624
vossy1
   Old Thread  #11 25 Mar 2025 at 8.18am  1  Login    Register
Just on a re read and it occurred to me, typical me I've approached this from a yeast perspective whereas you might be talking bacterial, or both!

I'm not sure how far you want to go down the 'rabbit hole' but if you wanted to speed the process up you could use a enzyme to break down the majority starch into simpler sugars. Unless you were setting up for a specific ferment you'll get a mixed ferment anyway but you could favour one side heavily by choice, ie, adding a specific bacteria or yeast.
Perfectcast
Posts: 84
Perfectcast
   Old Thread  #9 23 Mar 2025 at 5.56pm  0  Login    Register
In reply to Post #6
Theres a particle prep company not too far from me so I can collect freshly prepared so no shelf life additives used.
Perfectcast
Posts: 84
Perfectcast
   Old Thread  #8 23 Mar 2025 at 5.55pm  0  Login    Register
In reply to Post #5
very interesting thank you, I'll make some but but feels like I'm on the edge of a precipice, I just want to go fishing
JamieNow
Posts: 7471
JamieNow
   Old Thread  #7 23 Mar 2025 at 2.37pm  0  Login    Register
In reply to Post #5
Great channel. Love his music too - lol
JamieNow
Posts: 7471
JamieNow
   Old Thread  #6 23 Mar 2025 at 2.36pm  1  Login    Register
In reply to Post #1
As vossy said, it depends on whether they’ve been stabilised or not. The stuff that comes in sealed tins / jars like Nash & Dynamite will be ok to go as they are cooked fresh & sealed.

You may want to add some sugars to get the bugs working.
SteveyT
Posts: 41
SteveyT
   Old Thread  #5 23 Mar 2025 at 2.21pm  0  Login    Register
In reply to Post #1
If you look up the youtube channel Bait Tactics he's done a video showing you how to make your own lacto serum. This can be used as a fermentation starter. You could try putting some of this in to start the ferment
vossy1
Posts: 6624
vossy1
   Old Thread  #4 23 Mar 2025 at 11.36am  0  Login    Register
In reply to Post #3


Might be of interest, I never tried this in particles but thought about it. If you look up diacetyl you'll find it's often associated with Scopex flavour, as sort of burnt butter/toffee. It can be encouraged by higher fermet temps and both bactieria and yeast produce it.

I also used to wonder about differing alcohols and whether they'd be attractive to Carp in themselves, you can produce different types of alcohols by using different ferment temps. Again, something I never got round to, but I was interested also from a pov of ester production, esters being common flavour compounds and we all know how much carp appear to be attracted by them.

A big rabbit hole you can go down if so inclined
Perfectcast
Posts: 84
Perfectcast
   Old Thread  #3 23 Mar 2025 at 10.53am  1  Login    Register
In reply to Post #2
Cool, thanks for the help. I think I shall give this a whirl
cheers
Neil.
vossy1
Posts: 6624
vossy1
   Old Thread  #2 23 Mar 2025 at 10.48am  0  Login    Register
In reply to Post #1
As long as it's not had anything added to stabilise it, ie, salt or other preservative, then there's no reason you can't ferment it.
Fermenting, you can just leave them open to the environment to pick up natural yeasts though there is a risk of bacteria getting a head start, or you could use a brewers or bakers yeast, even giving that a 'head start' by reconning in some warm water first, lots of options
Page: 1 of 2  
   Consent Preferences   Advertising disclosure  
  © Copyright 2002-2025  -  www.CarpForum.co.uk contact : webmaster@carpforum.co.uk