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In reply to Post #29
Yeah, it's all trial and error. Initially I extruded my usual boilie mix made with egg into a pan of boiling water. I removed them as soon as the water started to boil again. With the setting of the egg, the breakdown time was really just the same as boilie pieces, ie not that fast. I like semo as an ingredient in my mixes, with the gluten content helping to bind the mix. But like with eggs, if you cook it you're going to prolong the breakdown time. With commercial pellets, I'm guessing it's a combination of low gelling ingredients, high pressure extrusion and a good blast of hot air, which produces pellets which will break down. Just keep tinkering, it's all good fun... for some of us 😃.
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In reply to Post #28
Thanks.
That makes sense as the pellets I've used in the past appeared to be quite high in fish meal content. I think they were produced using a livestock pellet machine which uses high pressure and high temperature to create the pellet shape. Therefore I didn't know if just making them like boilies without egg would work.
I'll have to do some experimenting. 
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In reply to Post #25
Use whichever liquid or powdered additives you want. If you are trying to compliment a particular boilie that you are also using, then use that as a guide. For drying times and storage, obviously you need to ensure that sufficient moisture is removed before storage. This can be anywhere up to a week dependant on temperature, humidity or use of a fan. For faster breakdown times, try and aim for a high level of non binding ingredients such as fishmeal, squid meal, nutmeals etc. You just need enough binder to bring the mix together and extrude without falling apart. You can start by using your current base mix and then adding extra fishmeal or whatever till you get to where you want to be.
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In reply to Post #26
Ref Pellets:
Thanks for that.
I did think about shorter boiling times but never considered boiling the whole sausage and then chopping it after. 
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In reply to Post #22
Thanks for the reply
I think I'll take your advice about using WPC80 and reducing the birdfood slightly to allow some LT94 to be added.
With regard to the pellets question. I was rolling sausages and cutting them to size after boiling the sausage. If I boiled my mix for around 60 seconds I found they would turn to mush im chilled water within a couple of hours.
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In reply to Post #24
Many thanks for the information, that's really useful.
I have made my own bait for winter in the past so I was toying with the idea of making some pellets for the whole year.
1. I'm guessing you mean liver or yeast hydrolysate?
2. Have you tried using Minamino instead of the hydrolysate?
3. How long do you dry them for?
I'm after rapid breakdown so I'll have to have a play around with liquid levels by the sound of it.
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In reply to Post #23
Yeah, it's annoying when things that you've been happily using disappear. The wonderful thing about making your own bait though, is that there is often some sort of workaround. I've been experimenting with homemade pellets over the last few years. I managed to aquire some steel, perforated mincer discs that fit perfectly inside my boilie gun. I make the mixes a bit softer than usual, using a diluted hydro rather than egg. No cooking, just extrude , chop up the " worms " with a pizza cutter and allow to dry. You can play with ingredients to customise various things such solubilty, oil content etc. All depends if you already make your own bait and enjoy messing. It seems nowadays that alot of folks can't be bothered.
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In reply to Post #22
Your point about fast breakdown pellets is extremely valid.
Quality Baits used to make 16mm fast breakdown pellets in the same base mix as their boilies and they were ridiculously good. Sadly they don't make them anymore.
They would attract everything that swims but the carp also turned up.
I'm trying to find someone who makes something similar at the moment.
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In reply to Post #20
Yep, totally agree with you on the solubles. I always include a good quantity in all my mixes. My nut mix actually has a slightly higher level than yours but just about rolls OK. I think that the oil in the peanut meal helps.
TBH, I don't think that you have overdone the soluble content as such. It's probably the addition of 2 low protein ( and therefore high lactose) milk products. Like I said, try replacing the WPC 35 with WPC 80 ( 45 % more protein so far less lactose ) . Also replace some or all of the Lamlac with semo. Personally, I'd also replace 5 or 10 % of the bird food with LT 94 or similar. I know its called a bird food mix but I always include it for both attraction and nutrition.
As for the casein that's up to you. With the price of milk proteins now, I try to get away with the bare minimum. I'll still use WPC 80 both for nutrition and also it's gelling properties. With casein being mainly insoluble, it won't make rolling any stickier but then would it actually offer anything with regards the instant attraction you seek ?
After all that, if it is really instant attraction that your after would paste baits or fast breakdown pellets not be an option ? Ultimately, all boilies with a skin on are inhibited from releasing their attractors. If you are set on boilies then a good bait soak is an option.
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In reply to Post #20
You could, still a soft sticky mix tho.
I figured that I could add one premium HP ingredient for confidence, worked out a £1 per kilo of rolled bait.
As I said felt like I'd cheated myself by using Cell activator probably could have used a 50/50 bird food for that. .
As it was I think that the birds ate more of it.
Happy ducks. 😅
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You are correct l didn't mention solubility in my OG post but I did intentionally put those soluble ingredients in to try and maximise my attraction. Again because most of my fishing is under 24 hours.
But it sounds like I've slightly overloaded them so will reduce the milks slightly and increase the semo and maize protein.
What are your thoughts on removing some of the carbs and replacing with casein? Is it worth it?
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In reply to Post #18
just waffling 
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In reply to Post #15
Where did the OP mention maximising soluble attraction ? His issue was a sticky mix was it not ? This problem is caused by high levels of solubles, particularly those rich in sugars such as lactose. As for Coffee Mate, where is this thread going Lol ?
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In reply to Post #16
Noo, didn't get round to it., I think B&M had an offer on 800g tins and Aldi had a special on baby formula, advance whatever containing a tiny percentage of predigested whey.
I used Coffeemate and formula years ago. until I bought vitamealo..10% job done,
Availablity in small amounts is a problem and carp tax,
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In reply to Post #15
Cheers
I think unless your rolling serious amounts of bait you are limited to what the likes of AA, Target and Bacarel have.
Have you had good results using coffee mate?
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In reply to Post #13
considering we're trying to maximise soluable attraction and aren't too fussed if the bait won't last 24 hours on the hair...I don't think we're going to get away with a non-sticky mix.
Making it more manageable and not having to clean the table between guns..would be nice.
So yeah, up the cereals or make a working cereal mix and then add the soluable attractors.
Quite often once the adding and tweaking is done the 'kilo' mix is 1.1kg meaning percentages of solubales are lower.
The choices aren't great, Lamlac, Calflac unless you want to chase down 5-10kg sacks of milk replacers. Hard to find details on some of the European and piglet milks.
Nukamel rings a bell.
I'd almost given up and was looking for decent prices on Coffeemate
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In reply to Post #13
Mmm, maybe revisit post number 4 😆
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In reply to Post #11
I that case it would make sense to remove the WPC,remove the lamblac to 5% and increase one of the binders like semo or maize protein?
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In reply to Post #3
The mix is quite sticky but I've just been leaving for 20-30 mins before rolling
I've had similar issues with WPC/ LamLac combo, figured it was the lactose.
How I miss Vitamealo..
Made a kitchen sink and all birdfood for this winter/spring, tried 3 flavours and plain.
I was going to make a spicy red/orange mix with Malay spice and SSA but I ran out of calor gas and wasn't going to cook that one up in the kitchen.
Caught all combos.
However kinda feel like I cheated because the top catcher used 10ml of cell activator.
Still had half a dozen carp ripping up the bottom in 3ft of water on the first sunny day, caught two and ran out of bait.
25% yellow egg biscuit
10% acid caesin
10% 50/50 WPC35 Lamlac
35% Semo/supergold/ maize meal/maize flour
15% tigernut & hemp powder
30g soya isolate (instead of Trusoy but ended up adding 30g anyway)
25g liver
25g brocacel
25g CSL powder
20ml crisp & dry
only required 375g liquid but retained 100% of paste weight when cooled.
Added 15ml liquid CSL to the bag before freezing, same again when thawed.
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In reply to Post #10
Personally think you need more in the way of binders. Adding more yeast (and to a lesser extent spices) will only increase solubility. Don't think you need the pdf either.
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In reply to Post #9
Many thanks for the replies
If I reduce the lamblac and remove the wpc35 and increase the yeast and mixed spice content to increase the taste it should still roll well shouldn't it?
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In reply to Post #1
I've found bird seed mixes to work all year round and as they're out of fashion I think they're massively underrated.
In winter they've out fished everything I've tried.
PS - Don't tell anyone.
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In reply to Post #5
Myself and forum member Saggybelly (Dean?) came up with a mix based on Enervite but I never got the chance to try it out -
25% SOYA FLOUR
20% WHOLEMEAL SEMOLINA
20% SLUIS UNIVERSAL, LATER CHANGED TO SOFTBILL
10% SODIUM CASEINATE
10% ROBIN RED
5% BREWERS YEAST
4% MIXED SPICES
3% EQUIVITE
3% LIVER POWDER
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In reply to Post #5
It contained robin red and a spice mix
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In reply to Post #5
From Nutrabaits website:
Robin Red, high level Liver Extract, Mixed Spices and Yeasts.
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In reply to Post #1
The make up looks very simular to the old Nutrabaits Enervite mix. Can't remember if Enervite had Robin Red in it, or just a spice mix?
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In reply to Post #3
Yeah, I thought it could be a bit sticky. The soluble content at around 20 % is not excessive as such but with the inclusion of both Lamblac and WPC 35, the lactose content of these will both be contributing to the stickiness. Maybe replace the WPC 35 with WPC 80 and replace some or all of the Lamblac with semo. You'll lose the fat content by replacing the Lamblac ( and increase the protein ) but if the bird food is quite oily it should be fine . Obviously, you could also add a little bit of oil if necessary..The gluten from the extra semo will also make things easier. Do a little test batch to see it that helps. As for the fish catching, that's for the fish to decide. Like you say ,it's early days yet.
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In reply to Post #2
The mix is quite sticky but I've just been leaving for 20-30 mins before rolling
Catch wise yes but then I guess its also hard to gauge so early in the season
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In reply to Post #1
By not performing as well as you thought it would, do you mean from fish catching results or from a rolling perspective, ie not coming together or too sticky ?
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Is anyone still using birdfood baits? I used to use them all the time. Ive started rolling my own again and gone back to birdfoods.
Ive been using one receipe or a while now, slightly changing it to see if I can get it to roll better etc
However its not preformed aswell as I thought it would so doubts are starting to creep in....
The mix is roughly this
40% birdfood
30% 3 way semo / soya / supergold 60
7.5% lamblac
5% WPC35
5% PDF
2.5% either yeast of liver powder
5% wheatgerm
5% spices, minerals, vitamins etc
Liquids per kg
3ml scopex
30ml Active CSL
30 liquid liver
7.5ml regular sense appeal
Thoughts?
Is it worth removing some of the carbs and adding milk.proteins?
I generally only fish short sessions so im wanting more attraction than anything else. I vary boiling times per batch I do and do round and sausages to alter the leakage etc
Any other receipts I can compare mine against or thoughts would be appreciated
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