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Otters have made to huyton Liverpool
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fatmanscoop

Posts: 30

#36 17 Mar 2025 at 9.40am

In reply to Post #35
The "spiked" roach are put on the bank not in the water. The otters come round at the same time everyday hence the camera (for learning the routine). Literally pop the spiked roach on the bank where you've been baiting them, walk away and smoke a rollie then walk past pick the little devil up and you are away. Apparently.

jhhilton1983

Posts: 1798

#35 6 Mar 2025 at 4.30pm

In reply to Post #34
Imagine how many Pike could have been killed

I have herd of much better and more discreet ways they can be dealt with. But alas they are protected so all theory of course.

fatmanscoop

Posts: 30

#34 6 Mar 2025 at 1.34pm

Apparently poison is the most effective way to get rid of your otter problem. Wildlife camera, few roach in the freezer and a bottle of strong poison.. A culvert on the river Severn near Shrewsbury was found to have been blocked with a number of dead otters which had all been poisoned with the same poison. Ace Ventura came to our mere with a list of names poking around a few years ago when it happened.

whitey79

Posts: 378

#33 4 Mar 2025 at 7.54pm

I understand that they will not nail every fish in the lake granted but what they will do is get most probably a bulk of the fish leaving a few fish that will become erratic and sporadic in the fishing the lake is big enough for some to survive

People’s perception is different there is people on here that have witnessed it on there lake and people that haven’t then there is people who have been involved in actual research studies over along period of time all have differing opinions and experiences

But imo this is not as simple as mother nature and they have always been here
No the have been reintroduced by man not nature but by humans they are also protected so that again is man interfering and protecting at all cost to the point where it affects people’s livelihoods people’s hobbies and even mental health if they are causing a nuisance they should be culled or trapped and re homed this is not from a personal agenda as I have fished with them before but on the rivers where fish can migrate up stream and down stream that’s natural still man made but more natural

All I can do is hope they move and leave a good chunk of stock behind the lake needs a break nothing grows through past the cormorants so the change of any recovery is slim if not restocked

scaley&dark

Posts: 5424

#32 4 Mar 2025 at 8.47am

In reply to Post #31
OP, like I said the fishing will change but the lake won’t die completely like some are telling you. It’ll be different and in years will recover as the otters move on.

Maybe in some places, maybe not.
The otters need for food will never go away, anything is fair game to otters, garden ponds, koi centres, birds, etc.

As these increasing & breeding numbers of escaped/released otter pairs/singles/pups increase, so will the area of 'their' 20 miles or so Territories, forcing any other otters that may intrude, to further afield into new areas ( like Liverpool now )

Any lakes on an otter route are at risk, maybe not in recent past times, or next year, but that can change overnight unfortunately. Especially in winter, the low water temps, make the carp easy pickings as they are less active.

You know there is a bit of an issue ( near a venue I used to fish ) when local council & do-gooders decide to build an otter tunnel under an A road dual carriageway so they don't get run over.

We have all just got to enjoy what we've got, when we've still got it.... or fence it, and restock.
The problem is here to stay.

Greekskii

Posts: 3268

#31 4 Mar 2025 at 5.52am

In reply to Post #30
Unfenced club lake of around 16 acres. Maybe 15-20 carp left. Otters spotted regularly but tend to just pass through. Has a similar amount of coots, moorhens, mallards, swans, geese than the fenced lake next door. The tufties prefer the unfenced lake over winter most years.
The lake has recovered now otters don’t hunt it as regularly, just use it as part of their route. You wouldn’t know otters were there apart from the lake of bigger fish or seeing them. It’s taken it a few years.

80 acre pit up the the road, unfenced, otters there regularly, still has a good head of carp and when I walked it this winter there were 100s if not 1000s of birds of all species. Rich and flourishing ecosystem still.

5 acres country park like I mentioned earlier, rich ecosystem still.

The way you lot speak about the effects of otters is that once they turn up the entire ecosystem does and you’re left with a muddy, barren place. No life, no nothing. It just isn’t the case. I have more first hand examples if you want them.

OP, like I said the fishing will change but the lake won’t die completely like some are telling you. It’ll be different and in years will recover as the otters move on. Probably end up with more weed as the stock gets reduced. It won’t end up a muddy bomb hole.

nicky_napkins

Posts: 521

#30 4 Mar 2025 at 0.20am

In reply to Post #29
Look at the wildlife on a lake with otters compared to one that is fenced off...
The otter lake is almost barren.

Greekskii

Posts: 3268

#29 3 Mar 2025 at 11.12pm

In reply to Post #26
As I said previously, when the exertion of energy to catch prey outweighs the energy gained they move on, from the water or to a new food source. This naturally allows food sources to regenerate and be available again in the future.

But yes, they seem to be more intelligent than some of the forum members at times. They don’t piss on their doorstep, they hunt from the extremities of their territory to the middle, normally where the main holt is. I’ve watched them swim through lakes full of fish to a preferred hunting ground for that day. Eat where/what is plentiful and all that.

It’s extremely naive to think these animals are not highly intelligent and complex tbh. Believing they are some mindless animal that just eats every last bit of food before moving on, even if it means exerting 100x the energy to catch it than they gain from eating it, can’t even be called naive, it’s beyond that.

runneil

Posts: 1857

#28 3 Mar 2025 at 10.37pm

In reply to Post #1

JamieNow

Posts: 7471

#27 3 Mar 2025 at 10.25pm

In reply to Post #25
I share the water with loads of beavers & a few otters here close to where I live.

Beavers are everywhere - I have never heard of anyone mention they eat fish & I have never seen then chasing / hunting fish as I think they're too slow. The don't always make dams - they will make lodges too which are basically massive snags made out of old branches. The do take down trees but they seem to manage the area & there are still loads of trees around the areas where they live - I think they prefer dead branches over live ones. They aren't particularly clever animals & if they are annoyed at you they will swim up & splash their tails at you - sounds like a crashing fish & can be annoying if you're trying to sleep. Nobody here seems them as an issue (public & anglers) - I believe that if a farmer has issues with them damning a stream, they just break it down (Lots of videos on youtube - a weird kind of AMSR following)

Otters are a bit more elusive but I am seeing more of them over the last couple of years including some in the city. I have caught one carp that had tail damage from one - I didn't realise but someone from the Uk who fishes the Cotswold Water Park told me when I showed them a picture. I have caught carp from swims where they have been hunting just a few minutes before & from what I can tell, they are more interested in any crayfish than fish - the ones I have watched usually come back with crays & when I come across their preferred area's / eating spots, I have only seen bits of cray shells & no fish bones yet. They seem to love swan mussels too. They seem to be very territorial & I will only see a single adult & a couple of pups in the area. They are on a smaller local pond & I have caught plenty of carp from it - there may be more food here but there seems to be a balance. I watched one follow a cormorant around for over an hour last year - it was proper comedy as it was just behind it like a benny hill sketch - every time the cormorant turned around the otter dipped beneath the surface. As mentioned - they seem to be quite clever.

RE other animals - we get the occasional bear up north of the city - they are more akin to foxes as a PITA - you don't leave food out at all as they are scavengers & will always prefer an easy meal. There are loads of them out west & you hear of the odd trouble but that is usually when they have been startled or have their young near by. We have had a few sightings of cougars in the area over the last few years - they are very elusive & will avoid humans completely if they can. I don't think I have ever heard of any attacks.

PaulBishop

Posts: 345

#26 3 Mar 2025 at 10.06pm

In reply to Post #25
"Otters are incredibly intelligent, they won’t wipe out a food source as then they don’t have future food stocks in their territory, loads of apex predators do the same"

They're predatory animals, not farmers or gamekeepers, once they've decimated a food supply, they move onto the next. Attributing crop rotation or what have you to some sort of super intelligence is naive.
Or do you think they fast occasionally to conserve future food supplies ?

Greekskii

Posts: 3268

#25 3 Mar 2025 at 9.56pm

In reply to Post #23
Try and give someone a glimmer of hope, it’s not all the end of the world for his water. It’ll just become a hard low stock pit. That suits plenty of anglers down to the ground.
That’s the reality. Not that it’ll become a lifeless waterbody with no ecosystem which is what you put across. Different, yes. Damaged, yes. But it still exists. I’ve seen much more devastation done by the hands of man to lakes and rivers.

Otters are incredibly intelligent, they won’t wipe out a food source as then they don’t have future food stocks in their territory, loads of apex predators do the same.

Fact is i’m trying to educate, and you don’t/wont see that. Not my fault.

I have first handed witnessed otters hunting the lake I was fishing, seagulls attacking them the entire time. My friend caught a carp two hours after the otters hunted his swim! I’ve personally fished lakes where otters visited daily, they built a home in the riverbank behind my swim because of how well I got it going and the fish activity in it. I still caught a few of the remaining carp and tench and bream aplenty. I also never found a carcass of a carp in 2.5yrs, despite seeing them active daily. This was a 5 acre lake in a busy public park and I knew the rangers very well. Not one carp carcass was found.

To the OP, things will change but it isn’t the end of the water. It’s always horrific and disheartening to see otters arrive and kill fish. Been on the end of it plenty of times. But the world isn’t ending so just keep going.

whitey79

Posts: 378

#24 3 Mar 2025 at 8.31pm

In reply to Post #22
Depends which country you live in if steal in some countries they will shoot you other countries will just chop your hand off ect ect nothing wrong with that in my eyes

People have fisheries which are there business that can’t be fenced so people who illegally introduce otters or like the other week lynx into the wild are fine to do so and business just have to except that or be put under even more financial stress erecting fence around sites that vast in size ying and yang the ripple effect every action has a consequence
The lake I fish has shoots through the winter the pheasants are breed to shot for sport they can kill there predators foxes ect nothing wrong with that

Your right on the antis were all doomed if they start making head way so I think best keeping opinions of fish pain of public forums where you are basically give them bullets to fire in there search to ban this hobby of all ours

wandle1

Posts: 7243

#23 3 Mar 2025 at 8.10pm

In reply to Post #18
Doom and gloom,lol...no I just tell the truth of what's happened ..shame that some don't have the knowledge and understanding ,but hey all I can do is pass what I see and experience ..

The PAG book I helped to produce,with some of the most respected names around. ,do you think they are doom and gloom and lying..

Take note of what Goose said about what he saw ,not mine eyes ,but his eyes on the lakes and ressis,some of which I know ..

I know one thing ,after reading some of your posts Greekski,and that is you like to cause trouble or get a rise,however if you posted more in educational terms ,with some of the experience you say you have ,you'd come across better..

Educate ,not denigrate ,eh Greekski ...and I'm...out of this convo..

Greekskii

Posts: 3268

#22 3 Mar 2025 at 7.49pm

In reply to Post #19
Fish farmers can though protect themselves. With a fence because no one farms a 60 acre pit. It’s small ponds. Easy to fence when you’re making money and as you said yourself, these fish are for sport not food. Completely different to the farmer you have examples about. When the do gooders finally turn on angling, boy will fish farmers be out of business fast. We might stick a hook in a fish, but they breed fish for the sole purpose of being hurt. That’ll be their view of it, look how they are about animals being farmed and killed for food.

A private fishery, someone profiteering from the desire of others to inflict pain on a living creature. I think most people would not agree they should be able to shoot and kill a protected species. Paying out their own pocket to protect their business sounds reasonable.

Bit like business owners aren’t allowed to shoot anyone that tries to steal from them, they can hire security and put a fence up though.

Goose

Posts: 12836

#21 3 Mar 2025 at 7.45pm

In reply to Post #14
You may be surprised as breeding programs has already begun. Kytes and buzzard populations have increased due to breeding programs and they have already started breeding eagles. Wild bore have also been reintroduced some time ago.

Goose

Posts: 12836

#20 3 Mar 2025 at 7.40pm

In reply to Post #18
Beavers have been reintroduced in small numbers over the last decade and are being monitored along with the effects they have on the environment. Those doing the research believe they will have a positive effect on the environment by building there dambs the water will back up and find a natural course not one created by man.

whitey79

Posts: 378

#19 3 Mar 2025 at 7.35pm

In reply to Post #16
You have to also accept that back in years gone by all the way back to the ice age man has hunted
This hunting as kept the balance of nature in touch we are naturally the apex predator who hunt and kill those times have changed given other species time to recover and others to explode
If a farmer is having trouble with foxes stealing his chickens that he has bought and is breeding for whatever financial gain he sees fit he goes out and is perfectly entitled to shoot said fox

If badgers are causing a problem with tb to his cattle for his financial gain he goes and shoots them

If crows and magpies are killing the lambs in the field of the farmer and destroying his livestock they are shot

If an otter goes to a private fishery where it is someone’s livelihood why shouldn’t he have the same rights

The world is evolving we was hunter gatherer and kept things controlled this way also survival of the fittest now it’s changed so far from what it was as we have evolved and life has become easier not doing what we use to do neglects nature and causes issues like this look at Asia look at Africa they are still hunter gatherer nations to an extent and there wildlife is in check

If we rewilded wolves in this country a better a you my last pound they would be maintained and definitely wouldn’t be allowed to settle in the city’s and surrounding suburbs
Banning fox hunting has caused an explosion in foxes which are vermin no one thought that one through properly nature needs balance and we are not doing are part in keeping the balance
And as for carp not being native your right the where brought here for food not sport so back to the farmer he protects his so why can’t fish farmers protect theres

Greekskii

Posts: 3268

#18 3 Mar 2025 at 6.57pm

In reply to Post #17
You are very doom and gloom about most things. Yes they cause issues but I know of lakes in my area that aren’t fenced, have thriving ecosystems, lots of bird life and otters are present. They are bigger pits in general but still not all is lost because of them. They still hold plenty of fish too. Further back towards how it was in carp fishing originally, before commercial fisheries and artificial stocking of fish.

Just because otters are hunting a lake does not mean the end of the world as you know it. You’ll likely end up with a 60 acre low stock lake. The otters will hunt it down to a point that the energy exertion to catch a carp outweighs the energy gained eating it, and they’ll just move on and hunt occasionally on the off chance.

Beavers, we have just had some released here, contained by fencing, right next to the main river. When they inevitably escape it’ll be fun. But then they aren’t going to change flood extents of larger return periods, and if they do, well the data and model needs updating anyway!
We don’t live in a natural environment at all, there is 1 maybe 2 rivers in England that can be classed as truly natural and unmodified. What you see as natural is natural to NOW after human interventions for hundreds of years. Stop all abstraction, discharge and navigation and see how many rivers become seasonal or dry up completely.

wandle1

Posts: 7243

#17 3 Mar 2025 at 5.40pm

In reply to Post #16
Yes they have been here a long time ..

But not in the uncontrolled numbers they are right now ,due to ,in many cases illegal reintroduction from private collections ,or similar..

There is a reason we had otter hunts and otter hounds ,..

People seem to forget ,they don't just take carp ,they also kill and destroy our native waterbirds and native fish stocks as well...

This so called balanced reintroduced has been so successful, that it has failed the indigenous species ,in fact ,there are so many male otters ,they tolerate each other, in real ,un messed around with nature ,this would never happen ..

Otter reintroduction.,is a ecological disaster, on many levels ...that does not even include carp or carp angling ,it's everything ,the circle of life has been ..distorted, and skewed in favour of a over protected apex predator ...its wrong on every level ,those involved should face the full force of the law ,it's a wildlife crime,rewilders are wildlife criminals bar none,they have no reality other,than a uni course,or degree..

I live it,I see it ...its depressing

Beyonce

Posts: 1480

#16 3 Mar 2025 at 5.27pm

The otters have been here since the last ice age. They came from Eurasia on their own accord. They have been here significantly longer than any carp, which were introduced by humans.

If humans want to stock lakes and waterways with imported fish for sport it’s their responsibility to protect them.

wandle1

Posts: 7243

#15 3 Mar 2025 at 5.25pm

In reply to Post #14
If people think otters are bad, now .....the government have given the go ahead of full on Beaver reintroduction ..

Beavers don't eat fish do they ,I hear some say, they be right ..but Beavers are geoengineering specialists ,they change the course of rivers and damage trees very quickly

So why is it bad?

It's terrible because ,the legislation red tape and general lies and bs ,you have to go through to get one removed..

Fancy ,a Beaver causing a river to back up and damage your land,house,lake,etc...Good luck trying to get it moved on...

How do I know?...I caught a prominent rewilder ,on our land ,sussing out where to let a Beaver 'escape'....I challenged him ....one year later ,one mile down stream.is carnage ,trees down ,a half built dam,on a spate river which backs up easily,luckily I have loads of pics ,but because I'm tech dim I can't work out how to do pics ...

whitey79

Posts: 378

#14 3 Mar 2025 at 5.15pm

In reply to Post #12
Like that’s going to happen let’s let a couple of brown bears and one or two packs of candian wolves lose around the fields of Liverpool

The health and safety and the risk to life is just to big

The kids would hunt them down and kill them all

No seriously they need culling like badgers foxes ect we removed them for a reason they were destroying the eco systems kill for killing sake waste food and arnt preyed upon themselves

Humans are the curse of society and the doom of nature stop interfering reintroducing species that arnt there for a reason

wandle1

Posts: 7243

#13 3 Mar 2025 at 5.12pm

In reply to Post #12
If you go down the far end of that big ressi ,in the summer ,amongst the long grass ,all you'll find is skeletons of deceased carp ...even the fly fishing chaps struggle on there ,also

The other big res I mentioned to you SWLT,don't even stock trout in it anymore ,toilets are shut,tkt office shut ,now they've cut all the trees down around thus 117 acre place .

These do gooder types,do they really know what's,what ?...of course they don't!

Just ONE selfish ,misguided, dangerous individual and yes I know who it is ,is responsible for the demise in part of southwest fisheries..and that doesn't include the now shut Tamar otter sanctuary nr Launceston ...at one time those feeder streams led to every single fishery in my locality ,like veins in your body ...

You can tell when your fishery will get hit,that's when the spate streams go into meltdown,turn to god ,pray because ,that's what has happened..

Now...

If your lake is fenced,generally speaking, and you check out the boundaries regularly then you have a chance ,if not forgot it...

Goose

Posts: 12836

#12 3 Mar 2025 at 4.59pm

A friend and I spent January in Devon just on the eastern edge of Dartmoor national park and we went out exploring the lakes, reservoirs and rivers. A member on here told of of a few locations that still have carp but I couldn't believe the devistation otters have caused to the arrears. Course fish are almost non existent and in the entire month I didn't see any coots, morehens,swans and only one solitary duck. The rivers still get the migratory trout and salmon but numbers are way down on when I used to visit in the seventies.. one reservoir has a good head of carp but it's nine hundred acres and very deep in parts I believe. Looking at the rewilders and having spoken to them in depth I brought up the devistation the otters have caused but they want nature to control numbers and are speaking to reintroduce wolves,bison, brown bears ,linx etc.

whitey79

Posts: 378

#11 3 Mar 2025 at 4.58pm

In reply to Post #10
Think the nearest water coarse is a mile or so as the crow flies a river / stream that’s as close as I can see the lake is ground fed no stream feeding it

It’s just hard on there we only have access to one side and not the whole only 3/4 of the bank it’s tree lined in parts scrub land long grass you always find dead birds but that is prob foxes the estate is also a shoot estate so pheasants and partridges everywhere missed kills ect it really is needle in a haystack situation

All we can do is pray it moves gets ran over mistaken for a fox or leaves us enough to fish for

wandle1

Posts: 7243

#10 3 Mar 2025 at 4.41pm

In reply to Post #9
How far is your lake from nearest watercourse ,ditches etc ?

Hope it's just a rare occurrence for your lake ,like you said ,it doesn't matter the size of the killed carp/fish ...its the passion of angling for them regardless ..

( you really don't want to have seen what I have over the years,I must be very strong minded ,as most would have packed it in )

Look out for spraints,push throughs,dead waterbirds and prints .and scales . Keeping looking ..nature will soon tell you .

Atb...

whitey79

Posts: 378

#9 3 Mar 2025 at 4.15pm

In reply to Post #8
Just been talking about this the fish we seen was only a double no monsters in their upper 20s the limit but it’s a double less it’s a fish those people who have spent the whole of last season blanking some new lads some regulars would have loved to have caught it’s hard enough with it’s size and restrictions I just hope it f…s off somewhere easier for it to catch a meal and doesn’t destroy it completely a few fish will do me I can fish for them can’t fish for ghosts

wandle1

Posts: 7243

#8 3 Mar 2025 at 3.34pm

For every fish taken ,its one less for the album
For every fish taken ,its your dream being hurt
For every fish taken its nearer to a lake being pointless to fish ..then the whole ecosystem starts to delaminate and breaks down ,the whole circle of the life that made that particular place special ..

For example ,my old club lake ,80 fish ,some pushing over 20lbs ,the otter arrives ,kills a few ,not the end of the world
Otter fence gets put around ,word gets out about predation ,people stop fishing it..

Fence gets damaged by persons unknown ,...lake shuts ,I still fish it now again ,approx 10 fish left ,all bream gone taken by Cormorants....lake soulless ruined ..

And repeat ,lost count of lakes I collated on...

runneil

Posts: 1857

#7 3 Mar 2025 at 2.31pm

In reply to Post #1
How deep is the lake ? I pulled off a lake 2018 due to otters being on there, however its still a decent fishery to this day, with carp growing and getting caught !

It also couldn't/ wouldn't be fenced as on NT land and they love having the otters! This is an estate lake of around 15ft depth in the middle.

I still see the odd carp caught with otter tail damage but not all , the main thing I noticed was the fishes behaviour they stopped mooching up and down the margins and always seemed skittish !

My initial fear was that all the carp would disappear within a couple of years but I have to say that just hasn't happened, I'm not saying it's an ideal scenario but also not as bad as I feared.

The lake is around 12 to 15 acres so relatively small compared with yours !

whitey79

Posts: 378

#5 3 Mar 2025 at 2.25pm

Just hoping it starts attacking the pheasants and partridges the gamekeeper won’t like that and you never know what happens then

wandle1

Posts: 7243

#4 3 Mar 2025 at 2.06pm

In reply to Post #1
Very sorry to hear this ..

If it is an Otter ,unfortunately you are going to witness a apex predator doing what it does best ,an ecological disaster for sure..

Of all the waters I've seen this on ,they never recover to how the lake was....especially as you say ,if the lake cannot be fenced..

Such a shame, blasted rewilders are to blame..

Baitman

Posts: 4481

#3 3 Mar 2025 at 11.12am

In reply to Post #1
Any pictures or video of it. Pm if preferred.

braders1978

Posts: 17595

#2 3 Mar 2025 at 9.49am

In reply to Post #1
Unfortunately if it's not fenced it's going to get ottered,there are so many of them now it's getting out of hand.The problem is the general public see the cute fluffy little otter and love them,they don't see the damage they are causing not only to fish stocks but bird life too.I hate to say it but your lake may never get back to what it is now especially if it cant be fenced

whitey79

Posts: 378

#1 3 Mar 2025 at 6.53am

Well as the title goes looks like the otters have made to Liverpool

There was a fish on are lake yesterday with its skin torn of its body still alive just in one of the bays then a member is convinced he seen the otter in his swim the other side of the bay where the fish was seen

Looks like the end for are little piece of heaven the lake is 60 plus acres with no chance of otter fencing

So how long have we got left and will it ever recover the cormorants have smashed the silvers year on year and now tarka has set up home looks to me like the end is here for the next few years at least he will be able to go undisturbed as it’s a private estate

Once he’s done here St Helens is across the fields there next


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