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In reply to Post #42
Just like many other species, Carp also possess Solitary Chemoreceptor Cells (SCCs) which are thought to be a separate aspect of Chemoreception away from Gustation and Olfaction and are part of the external receptors. SCCs are thought to work in detecting chemicals within the water columns.
Aside from what a Carp can “smell” or “taste” - or if the carp inherently see’s/know’s certain things as food items. They are also thought to investigate items due to SCCs which would explain why flavours (chemical compounds) attract them.
Olfaction and Gustation are not the only variables when considering Chemoreception.
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thank you for the clarification sam - you are absolutely correct 
those comments were examples of statements I have read elsewhere as to why / how baits do or don't work based on a human perception or understanding & I believe they are most likely all untrue.
maybe sensibly / rationally but obviously not very clearly 
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In reply to Post #40
Jamie you write very rationally and sensibly but with regard to Pineapple flavour not being attractive to carp as they do not encounter them in their natural environment while rational , would appear to be incorrect , probably because the flavour is based on amyl acetate which is the base or used in Pineapple ,banana and Cranberry flavours ,which from experience all seem to work.
Simply an observation based on many many years of boilie manufacture.
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In reply to Post #38
olafactory & gustatory systems, although similar are completely different & can be stimulated independently of each other - both from up close or from a distance & in some cases will contradict each other.
physical stimulation of the systems is not the only part of whether an item is a food - it is the metaphysical brain signal that the fish has associated with the physical stimulation that is the important bit & defines the reaction.
a part of it's body will detect something & it's brain will either have an inherent (evolved) or associated (learned) trigger to the stimulation which will determine how it reacts.
whether that is thinking / intuition or whatever you want to call it but stimulation alone isn't enough.
we haven't even scratched the surface of fish sensory systems because we typically only view them from how we understand our own. be that sight, smell, taste, around, touch - there is always a massive assumption from our own viewpoint & understanding. all senses are metaphysical - made up in our brains & is just our brains way of understanding them & to assume that every other animal reacts in the same way is arrogant to say the least.
carp won't like pineapple because it has never encountered a pineapple
carp can't detect oils because they aren't water soluble
carp can't see my rig because it is the same color as the weed next to it
according to us as humans & not all of us are able to sense or react to things in the same way as everyone else, let alone a creature that has been on a separate evolutionary path to us for the last 500million years.
99% if carp fishing is quackery - all based on best guesses. problem is that every guess or discovery is only a tiny part of a much bigger, extremely complicated picture that is far beyond what anyone will ever be able to truly understand.
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In reply to Post #36
"- it thinks of beneficial foods that contain eugenol, vanillin & the organic acids that are found in the flavor constituents"
#
I doubt they think at all, just react naturally to stimuli.
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In reply to Post #35
You only seem to talk of olfactory stimulation. This gets them looking, then they try a potential food item and gustatory response kicks in i.e. taste.
The difference between an average bait and an exceptional bait is down to both olfactory and gustatory attraction. As already explained so many natural foods contain lower levels of compounds we have now found as attractive of our synthetic flavours.
>This is sheer quackery.
My baits work with and without the flavours. On balance I actually find they work better with the flavour especially if its on a lake I can pre-bait a little. I am currently using two baits together, one has no added synthetic flavour (but has added natural flavours such as EO) but the other does and is better for it. I also start at half the recommended minimum level (if it has one) and often find this is close to what works for me. I don't want to smell my finished baits through the plastic bags!
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In reply to Post #34
Gotcha, cheers.
You must have a pretty wild ingredients storage room with the various bottles and tubs of the constituent chemicals and ingredients to compile the flavours I guess!
The freshness of flavour seems to be talked about a lot more nowadays, particularly with the trend of legacy flavours being fashionable and getting silly prices on the 2nd hand market.
Are they any recommended techniques for longer term storage of flavours? Does freezing do anything odd to them would you say?
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Not sure if that is a question for Sam or anyone?
Science shows that carp feeding responses can be affected by macronutrients, micronutrients, phytonutrients or combinations of them together via olfactory & gustatory receptors.
Lots of flavors contain elements of phytonutrients which are found in nature within plants & animals- especially when bacteria / bugs break down more complex food particles into simpler ones that are easier to utilize - esters, flavonoids, organic acids, salts & terpenes (plus many more).This is beneficial to carp as it indicates easier food & the bacteria that helps them get the best from it. The success of fermented elements in baits is proof of this.
Nature has had 2.1 billion years of evolution to allow living things to come up with ways of identifying nutrition & foodstuffs via a combination of receptors & the brain signals that are triggered when they are encountered which can be described as palatability. Some concentrations of chemicals when mixed together create stimulation within an animals brain whilst others can create negative reaction.
Best example in humans is sodium chloride - by itself it is not palatable, does not create a feeding reaction & in larger amounts is rejected. Add a small amount to a simple foodstuff such as simple carbs a potato or a nut & it creates a stimulatory feeding reaction. Once you start eating them it’s hard to stop.
Most food items will have elements of this happening throughout them already but flavors in baits are a short cut to doing this imo.
I agree that a carp doesn’t come across a boilie with bunspice & think ‘oooh - hot cross buns” - it thinks of beneficial foods that contain eugenol, vanillin & the organic acids that are found in the flavor constituents. I also agree that some of the pure chemicals in flavors aren’t found in nature in their pure form but variations of them via things like salts are very common. Butyric Acid is a good example.
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Science shows that hungry fish are attracted to food by chemoreception and that food signals come from the components of macronutrients. Please enlighten me as to how synthetic compounds that are totally alien to the aquatic environment could possibly influence their feeding behaviour. This is sheer quackery.
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In reply to Post #32
I can’t speak for others but for OptiBaits it’s always individual substances that we blend together to make the finished flavour, whether that’s by myself or my flavourist.
This is of course the best way to go about it.
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In reply to Post #31
please be option 4) 
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In reply to Post #30
hey Sam,
I didn't really word it that well on reflection, it was an offhand curiosity... when you read about you flavour guys "making up a batch" I was wondering how many different components do you have to assemble generally.
Obviously it depends on the flavour, but talking about the tutti-frutti (without givng too many secrets away), are you assembling different existing fruit flavours or are you assembling say dozens of the chemicals or ingredients.
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Hi Sexonlegs.
There’s numerous ways that an old flavour recipe can be acquired, I’ve done it a few different ways with different flavours but I’d rather not go in to specifics for each of them for obvious reasons (may or may not involve option 4).
Here are a few options for you-
1. You could get the flavour analysed and receive a full report of the substances held within. You can then replicate the flavour on your own by buying all the ingredients and mixing yourself or you could go to a flavour house and pay them to make it for you. You really need the flavour you’re testing to be as fresh as possible for best results.
2. You could buy the recipe.
3. You could be lucky enough to be given the recipe.
4. You could break out your ninja outfit and infiltrate the building in which the mysterious recipe book of legendary flavours is housed, being sure to bypass the rigorous security steps the flavour overlords have put in place.
Their first defence is a high fence laced with TMA, cadaverine and putrescine, but before tackling this you need to think forward to what’s waiting on the other side- big **** off dogs trained in the depths of Essex to rip arms out of sockets. You can either feed them off or bypass all of this by utilising my preferred method- get your mate to fly a plane overhead and parachute down on to the top of the building. Forget using a helicopter, they are far too obvious as they operate at a lower altitude. Once on the roof of the building simply (and quietly) cut a hole in the roof big enough to fit through and abseil down to the promised land. Be sure to navigate the lasers and you’re golden 
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In reply to Post #15
Hi Andy.
I’m not sure what you’re exactly asking here- “what levels down do you flavour houses/guys/companies have to go for the recipie?”.
If you’re asking what quantities I make/have made up it all depends upon the flavour in question. Personally I am fanatical on freshness so I tend to do smaller batches than others. Yes it makes it more expensive but as always- quality over profit.
I make up some flavours completely by myself, one ingredient at a time, and other flavours I have made up by a flavour house and then put my own spin on them (which is also what John Baker does, and we use the same flavour house).
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In reply to Post #26
I feel for you!
I binned my collection of artificial flavourings over ten years ago. They are nothing but smoke and mirrors. Absolutely pointless. Sniffing them does seem to make many anglers happy though! It’s a great pity the carp cannot appreciate an airborne odour too!
Fish get caught despite them, not because of them.
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In reply to Post #26
Sounds like the making of a Dan brown novel.. 
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In reply to Post #25
The plot thickens 
I really wanted it to only be a closely guarded secret, written down only on parchment and kept in a leather bound padlocked book... maintained by a shadowy underground cult and shown to those bait makers who have proved themselves worth.... like Sam.
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What is amusing about this thread is that although Bob Campbell did supply the very first flavourings to Richworth he NEVER supplied them with Tutti Frutti. This information was direct from Bob himself. He did later produce his own version of TF when it became popular but admitted that he could not make an exact copy.
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In reply to Post #23
It was Scopex.
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In reply to Post #20
Did you ever deal with Bob? He was a great guy and blended a couple of flavours for me back in the day. One was a copy of a now unavailable flavour and the other was 'unqiue' to me, based on another known good flavour with a few tweaks.
Despite having a business and using gallons of the stuff I never got the IP from him for 'my' flavour, never even crossed my mind in such a small industry with tight profit margins. Back then fishing was a small part of what he did. Before that when the original tutti flavour was produced it was and even smaller industry and I very much doubt full IP implications were considered at that time. Richworth kept the recipes private but things get out.
One guy already mentioned in this thread worked with Bob. He has also worked for some other large bait companies at quiet a high level. I am 99.9% certain he has the original recipe. It might even be in his book (or is that Scopex he listed?) but that is at home and I can't be bothered to check as its a pointless argument.
The 'original' tutti flavour is available from several sources that I know of, Sam at Optibaits has no doubt done his homework and knows what he is getting/selling 
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In reply to Post #20
When Plantex bought Campbells, the sale would include those IP rights.
When Mistral bought Richworth, the same applies
If Hinders and Optibaits have the same simple recipe too, there's no "Trade secret" at all.
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In reply to Post #20
Why so angry 
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In reply to Post #14
re: " What an odd thing to say! "
NOT at all, the following is a business fact: "Trade Secrets"
The original richworth baits tutti frutti flavour supplied by Bob at RD Campbell - the recipe would of been a "Trade Secret"
[A trade secret is a form of intellectual property (IP) comprising confidential information that is not generally known or readily ascertainable, derives economic value from its secrecy, and is protected by reasonable efforts to maintain its confidentiality.]
Do ya think Bob would have shared that recipe information with others/competition? 
YOU state you have the *original recipe* really curious ...please do state how you came about it, cheers!
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In reply to Post #8
re: "I’d hazard a guess that it was written down at some point. "
That goes without saying!
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In reply to Post #16
Proven catchers, but Different strength liquids
Solar E12 dosage was 1-3ml per 1lb
Richworths Tutti was 3-5ml per 1lb mix, so what was that diluted down with..... did it make any difference, or better ?
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In reply to Post #16
I'm sure i have two full bottles of the richworth double strength tutti flavour in my shed untouched.
Remember buying them when they said they were closing or stopping selling it
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In reply to Post #13
Solars Esterblend 12 was basically Campbells Tutti frutti without the added orange colouring.
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In reply to Post #14
a bit off topic.... but out of interest Sam, what levels down do you flavour houses/guys/companies have to go for the recipie?
are you blending existing flavours or are you going right down to individual separate esters, acetates, buterates, caproates, other acids etc?
I've often wondered this when listening to yourself, JB, Jason AB etc talk.
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In reply to Post #7
What an odd thing to say!
It is made to the original recipe but to be fair it doesn’t have the orange dye included, which was only ever added for visual purposes to the anglers eye.
I’ve been using it for years and so have many very happy customers of mine.
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In reply to Post #7
Campbells didn't only sell Tutti to Richworths.
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In reply to Post #11
Mistral bought the Richworth brand. There still producing Toots. Not sure who makes the Hinders Toots.
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In reply to Post #9
Didn’t richworth sell the tutti recipe to hinders when they sold up? And Parberry bought out the rest of it?
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Call richworth and ask for it. I got 2 x 250ml bottles of double strength flavour last year from them. 
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In reply to Post #7
Richworth Toots are still being produced. So someone is still producing the flavour. I'm sure campells got bought out. Origional recipe must be out there somewhere.
EDIT.. just done a quick Google Campbells were bought out by a company called Plant -ex in 2018. For what it's worth.
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In reply to Post #7
I’d hazard a guess that it was written down at some point.
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In reply to Post #6
re: "Drop me a pm. I got a fresh batch a month or so ago. Original recipe"
*Original recipe* ? ...yeah right ! 
Bob at RD Campbell did the original for Richworth, Bob at RD Campbell & Bob Baker have passed away...how can you possibly have the "Original recipe" ?
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Drop me a pm. I got a fresh batch a month or so ago. Original recipe
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In reply to Post #1
Handcraft do Tutti hook baits so might be worth asking Gav, they smell amazing but not fished with them yet.
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In reply to Post #1
Alan Parbery ( Mistral Baits) took over Richworth so he might have something you can use, otherwise Hinders offer Tutti pop ups that, I think, are the original flavour.
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In reply to Post #1
Sam at OptiBaits has some on special now & then - is as close to the original Ritchworth stuff as I have seen.
Solar Esterblend 12 is meant to be very close too but they are showing as sold out at the moment.
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Hello, all.
I am after some tutti frutti flavouring to make my own boilies and paste, who does the best flavour?
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