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In reply to Post #41
I have always thought a nut bait is cheap to make and highly digestable , instant results what people want, it must be a nightmare sourcing decent fishmeals for a good bait company ?
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In reply to Post #39
Once a good bait always a good bait. The only thing that ruins them are sheep running off to the next big thing and trends usually driven by image. It has cost a lot of bait companies for me 
I guess they either move with the tide or fall with it, it’s that simple for me. My advise is use somebody that you trust or roll your own 
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In reply to Post #41
Many different baits in a company range keep bored and in confident anglers amused spending their cash
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In reply to Post #39
Why do companies have 5/6/7different baits? To appeal to 5/6/7 different groups of anglers. I struggle with the nut bait concepts but I get asked so many times to make one that I may just consider it 😂
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Yet only a few weeks ago people were doing down the smaller company’s and garage rollers that put effort into making Low profit quality baits.
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In reply to Post #38
The thing is all of those brands that you’ve mentioned have at one time or another produced at least one or two quality baits or products. It’s just all the other stuff they peddle that lets them down.
The original Active8 was perhaps the best bait I’ve ever used.
The original fermented bloodworms from sticky were awesome.
I caught many many fish of Nash Whisky.
Just seems over time many of them loose their way a bit. Home rolling wins every time for me.
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In reply to Post #36
That's a fact but the brands are trying to catch anglers. They are succeeding, most anglers are obsessed with some brand or another.
It's time people open their eyes and don't take anything for granted.
Not everyone knows brands like mainline, sticky, Nash aren't offering the best baits. It's not because a bag of baits cost £11 it's excellent bait but it's catching a lot of fish
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In reply to Post #36
Lets face it less and less people know anything about bait... They want instant result for their spent money... Same as in any other part of our lives... Majority of people just dont care anymore... And I wouldnt even say that bait companies in last 5 years at least, are doing a lot of marketing on quality of their bait... It is all about catch catch catch... Bigger issue I see here is how adverising is letting people think they have to use boilies to catch carp... And lots of them... So untrue in so many fishing situations...
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In reply to Post #35
As I call it, Top notch, or a high nutritional Value bait, you are right it is not needed to catch carp, most nut baits are not the best for a balanced diet compared to say milk proteins or fishmeals.
But for all the marketing spill, catch reports, social and cost, you would expect it to better than what the label details wouldn’t you.
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In reply to Post #34
Maybe a bit controversial but top notch fish nutrition is also something you don't need if there are naturals enough. A carp's diet is more than boilies...
A good boilie is a balanced bait and catches fish over a longer timeframe but being able to do this you don't need top notch nutrition.
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In reply to Post #33
EU Labels on nutrition, useful, as It confirms & mirrors what us home bait makers/rollers know.
Think the main requirement nowadays is... does it ( the mix of choice/next wonder bait ) go through a massive boilie rolling machine, and is perfectly round, smells carpy, looks consistent in colour, feels ok texture wise, and catches a few fish.
TBH I think top notch fish nutrition is not the highest priority for big bait manufactuers.
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In reply to Post #32
Hi Smurf
Very useful information that. With the secrecy that has traditionally surrounded carp baits, I bet it pains them to actually declare what is in them ! And yet, they still manage to throw in a few ambiguities such as derivatives and products !
On my club lake, CC Moore's Live System seems to account for a fair share of captures. Whether this is due to the make up of the bait or just the large number of anglers using it, I'm not sure. So recently, I have been experimenting with a non fishmeal mix based on cereals, maize protein, milk proteins, CSL and yeast. And now with what you've told me, I too have just looked on a German bait site to see what's in the Live System. On CC Moore's site, it mentions CSL powder, yeast and
even poultry meal. But this is what I got from baitservice.de.
CC Moore's Live System Shelf Life
Composition : Grain and grain derivatives, egg products, oil seed and oil seed derivatives, water, propylene glycol, pig blood products, milk and milk derivatives, sodium benzoate.
Analytical components : Crude protein 22.1 %, crude fibre 0.4 %, crude fat 6.6 %, crude ash 3.2 %, moisture 33.9 %.
CSL could be classed as a grain derivative but there's no mention of yeast or poultry meal. If they've put up information for the wrong bait, which site would would have the correct information ?
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In reply to Post #31
Some main brands are not too bad. The EU is our friend at times (yes believe it or not) and with EU rules all baits should be marked with its ingredients and basic nutritional content. Obviously this does not apply here in the UK any more but a few minutes on (as an example) a german bait suppliers web site and google translate and you can find some interesting things out.
Mainline Link
Soya flour full fat, cereals, pasta flour, potato protein, corn flour, soybean flour, legumes, milk protein, whey protein, soy, egg products, fish meal, EC approved flavor in powder form
Crude protein 27.5%, crude fat 9.42%, crude fiber 2.97%, crude ash, 5.02%, NfE (calc) 43.17%, sodium 0.41%
CC Moore Odyssey XXX (shelf life)
Fish and fish derivatives, grain and grain derivatives, water, GLM extract (10%), egg products, oil seeds and oil seed derivatives, propylene glycol, corn steep water, pig blood products, yeast (Saccharomyces cerevisiae), seaweed, milk and milk derivatives, sodium benzoate,
Crude protein 30%, crude fiber 0.8%, crude fat 7.4%, crude ash 7.3%, moisture 34.3%
I am 100% confident that on most lakes and in most situations a half decent home made bait when fished back to back with any of the above will ultimately catch the same number if not more fish. It will be better for the fish (we spend how much on 'fish care' equipment so why not start off feeding them well?) A home made bait can also be tweaked in more ways to the lake and fishing situation (hard for throwing stick, soft for carp only waters, big baits for lakes with nuisance spices, soluble baits etc).
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In reply to Post #1
Hi Chaps
You would have thought with the information available regarding the carp's nutritional requirements, that baitmakers would formulate their baits along those lines. It seems not all do !
If these baits work long term after being applied in quantity, it would appear to totally disprove the whole HNV / nutritional recognition theory. The puzzling thing is that it wouldn't cost a great deal more to boost the protein content using the likes of Supergold 60, Alpha Soy or similar.
Having said that, who knows ? Maybe it's the sub optimum protein levels that keep 'em feeding because they're never quite satisfied ! Personally, I'll keep including milk proteins, fishmeal, liver powder, yeast etc in my home made baits but if people want to pay £ 12 a Kilo for a boilie with a good amount of breadcrumb and maize flour in, then that's their business. I know that I wouldn't !
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In reply to Post #28
Always amazes me how these baits have been field tested for 3 years and everywhere thay have gone thay were the only baits that caught and have a unique set of attractors in previously never used in boillies,  never had it so good, cough
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In reply to Post #22
Hi Smurf,
BM1 being a fishmeal is probably a bad comparison. Need to compare a “good” nut mix to theirs.
You cant tell a lot from a base mix just from what’s on a packet (apart from when the biggest percentage is breadcrumb!) as so many fishmeal baits are similar to BM1, give or take. It’s the quality of the “extra’s” that can make the difference.
Another of their baits.
Analytical Analysis Moisture 27.1% Protein 30.3% Fat 7.7% Ash 6.4% Crude Fibre 1.3% Composition CLO, fishmeal, soya flour, GLM, bloodmeal, calf milk, egg products, preservatives and carp attractants
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In reply to Post #25
My pond carp will eat almost anything. I have not tried loads of commercial boilies on them as I don't have the time or inclination to bother but I have tried a few. A couple of Nash pop-ups they will just not bother even trying, can't remember which ones off the top of my head (they both had squid in the name that much I do remember). I mean they will try a leaf or flower petal if it falls on the water but not these pop-ups!
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In reply to Post #24
shimano boillies what a joke imo
Got to say, there must be some money in it if Shimano are participating 
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I have a customer with a fantastic pond. Lovely little bridge over it to feed the fish from. It’s got a nice selection of carp in it. Mirrors and commons up to 30lb and a few upper 20s. These are pond fish and are conditioned to eat what you feed them. They are virtually tame. Last week he said to me once I’d finished the boiler to come and watch something funny. Someone had given him some essential cell. He broke three baits in half with a few pellets. All of the fish bar two completely ignored the ECell. The two that did suck in a half bait ejected them straight away. Not one fish ate even half a bait. And these fish have never seen a rig.
We did chuckle. I did try to film their reaction but the light wasn’t right and video isn’t great. I will upload it to YouTube later and link to here.
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In reply to Post #23
OH GOTA SAY , shimano boillies what a joke imo
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In reply to Post #20
Interesting , tank tested a few super duper wonder cant fail baits against some honest baits and lets just say the super must have crap that's caught carp all over the shop did not perform, read between the lines
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In reply to Post #21
Its no secret. BM1 with the Equivite changed to 10g/kg Selenavite E works out as the following (based on the average datasheet values for each ingredient);
54% crude protein
14% oil
20% carbs
Most of the rest is fiber
If you add a few things to it like GLM, liver, squid, krill meal, robin red etc that will change it a little. The mix is very basic to allow some of these things to be added whilst still keeping a high nutritional value.
A 'good' carp diet is normally between 30 and 40% protein depending on the time of year, the paper you are reading and the nature of the lake they are in etc.
When BM1 is put in water the solubles start to leak out. After 10-12 hours they should nearly all be gone (depending how long you cook them for and how big the bait its plus any 'help' from fish nibbling at them). That will drop the remaining protein level to just under 40% as available for digestion.
A big essex bait company lists this information on the packs sent to the EU and they are similar levels to that of the example shown by the OP for some very well known baits.
You can get 'decent' baits like the BM1 from some of the smaller companies if you know what questions to ask they are normally quite obvious.
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In reply to Post #20
It would be interesting to put the forums BM1 mix thru the process and see what it comes out with.
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In reply to Post #19
Like I said on here before, the people who use crap will be found out in the end. The bait industry isn’t a fair one. You can be a tiny brand with really good products but left behind by massive brands who produce canary food rolled into little round balls and punt them out as superbaits with heavy marketing. It is why I have always said that everyone must have some basic understanding of bait making to spot the difference and that isn’t always easy to do.
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In reply to Post #15
Ha ha ha  
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In reply to Post #15
Takes the edge of a bargain I bet, that does, try Primark for the shorts in future lol
I once got one from those rotating vending machines, cheese salad, opened the wrapper, had a bite and thought, that does not taste right, turned it over, the T cake was mouldy, be aware! No discount either ffs
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In reply to Post #13
Ahh, wrong guess it was then:P
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In reply to Post #15
Cheese and onion. Fairly safe with that!. Remember its a “best before” 😂
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In reply to Post #10
Bought a sandwich from Sainsbury’s today as it was out of date today. 29p.
Been there, done that.
Saved £2 on the sandwich but had to throw away a £14.99 pair of boxer shorts and had an afternoon wasted looking at the toilet door.
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In reply to Post #10
Goes back to how much people want to pay for bait. Shop with mark up, £12, bait supplier direct £6 etc.
I would lay off the 29p sandwiches tight arse. The lettuce may be greener than you think
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In reply to Post #1
https://www.dtbaits.co.uk/boilies/n-blend-boilies/
...at least it’s honest...
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In reply to Post #1
How many “consultants” use said brand?
their bait needs to be paid for somewhere along the line
Wages warehousing transport etc all have to be paid for.
Soon mounts up
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Factor in to this they will be buying products by the tonne, see what difference this makes in any other type of bait making - buying per KG or 25kg of a product.
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In reply to Post #9
It’s been said, but 70p per kg for base mix. Then factor in overheads of rolling it, then factor in making a profit. The bait co doesn’t sell for £12 per kilo, the shop does. But the shop buys at £6 or whatever per kilo, less overheads, VAT and making a profit.
Still got to sell a lot of bait to make a living.
Bought a sandwich from Sainsbury’s today as it was out of date today. 29p. Normally sells for £2 or whatever. That’s a rip off isn’t it? That cup of coffee you buy, £3 or whatever. That’s a rip off.
Everything’s a rip off apart from whatever it is you’re selling, which you couldn’t possibly do any cheaper
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In reply to Post #1
12kg from a shop so that includes their mark up (50%?). Add the magical advertising hype and this will sell the bait
As an angler, who for me bait is everything, I wouldn’t worry too much about it. It’s the results that count. There are a lot of good baits around nowadays and high quality ingredients are not the be and end all 
Long time ago when a said nut bait came out somebody once told me the base mix cost around 70 odd pence a KG. End of the day it’s a case of will the carp eat it but more importantly keep eating it. The oils in the nut / fats will be attractive and there will be a sprinkling of carp magic in the attractants
Bait has to do a couple of things for me, catch carp and make the fish want to eat it when they see it and the most important give the angler 100% confidence when using it. All you have to do then is concentrate on the fishing
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Not a big fan of EU regulations (not at all!), but this one made me smile. When the law for fishing bait went into action, it was one big told you so reading the declarations. It is really bad with most brands. It surprised me to see that both mainline and sticky baits were sold in holland without declarations (apart from the mainline shelfies).
But it goes both ways, it proves most boilies are crap but it also proves that those can be very effective.
(you are talking about manilla, amirite? )
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In reply to Post #1
I’m not surprised by that at all.
Probably high nutrition compared to others !
It’s why I prefer to source my own ingredients, and roll my own bait.
Least I know what is in it.
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In reply to Post #3
Is that the direct bulk price or per kilo from a shop?
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In reply to Post #3
Without sounding like a *osse* here, you have a choice mate either buy or don't. The only way you'll ever get the value you want is to roll your own baits. I don't have the time and the Mrs would kick my arse if I did my own so I've tried a few over the years and now have found said company to use.
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In reply to Post #3
I have no ide why people think that big companies are putting something special in there bait?
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In reply to Post #2
I am sure that is the case with most large bait firms id still expect a bit more bait for my money.
I didn't mention the brand as wanted to hear some opinions without bias
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In reply to Post #1
If it's a well known brand ( why not name ) then I would imagine most of the £12 kg is made.up of production, marketing and branding cost. Doesn't leave much of a margin for what goes into it.
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I was checking a website of a well known highly regarded (or at least used to be) bait brand who charge over £12 a kg for their bait. The nuturional analysis and ingredients is now listed on the site this is what I found...
Analytical Analysis Moisture 25.4% Protein 17.1% Fat 13.6% Ash 2.4% Crude Fibre 2.8% Composition Tigernut meal, maize flour, soya flour, red breadcrumb, semolina, calf milk, egg products, preservatives and carp attractants
No doubt it will catch but id expect a little more for £12 a kg. Thoughts?
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