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In reply to Post #52
Very interesting discussion around carp holes is it the clay or minerals within the clay that draws them to that specific spot? I have thought about baiting with a spot with sheep minerals before either in block form or powdered but have never actually got around to it.
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In reply to Post #59
For my small pond (5500l) with 5 carp (plus a tench and a grassy) I feed 4-5 times a week now. This will go up to once a day around April and then 2-3 times a day by mid summer. A feed is as much as they eat in 5-10 minutes then any left gets netted out.
I use the same basic feed all year until the water temperature drops below about 10c then switch to a winter feed until the spring. I believe they would eat more through the winter if I feed them but the biological filter would not cope so well and the water quality would suffer.
They seem to like this pattern 
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In reply to Post #58
Question for the pond lads, or carp in general. How often do carp actually need to feed, in general ? 2-3 times per 24hrs till full ? Little and often ca 5-6 times per 24hrs ? What´s the borderline temp, when winter mode kicks in ?
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In reply to Post #56
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In reply to Post #56
coating baits in it would probably give you better effect if any, just guessing
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In reply to Post #54
I am not surprised it didn't work. I think to 'turn them on' to clay you would need a big bed of it. A few % in a boilie mix will just give you a dense bait! I will cross that one off my list of ideas 
It's different in a Koi pond which is a much more controlled environment with very little natural food. Also as I said before I add it for water quality as much as any direct affect it may have on the fish.
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In reply to Post #53
Its in some of the Koi foods
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In reply to Post #50
I tried it about 10 years ago after going down the same thought process....
Results....not a lot. In fact, a waste of time.
Both in a base mix, and as a soak.
I wouldn't bother.
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In reply to Post #51
They must ingest it somehow? Otherwise there is no benefit from it.
Wether that is internally by eating it,
or externally by flanking their sides / heads in it / rolling in it is probably up for debate/venue dependant. Everywhere is so different !
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In reply to Post #51
I don't think anyone can say 100% they eat clay deliberately but the lake I fish they go mad in the clay spots and when it was drained all that was found in the clay spots was errr clay 
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In reply to Post #49
Do carp actually eat clay though? I've seen lots of carp rubbing on clay spots but not seen them trying to eat it.
I'm not keen on large amounts of salt in baits/particles, and putting salt rocks on a spot has been counterproductive for me.
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In reply to Post #49
I use montmorillonite clay in my pond, once a week through the summer and down to once a month by mid-winter  However the clay in my pond is added for the improvement it brings to the water quality not directly for the fish (who are all pigs anyway).
It's not water soluble so the carp will have little chance of detecting it unless they eat it (or in my pond drink it). But they must 'like' it in the clay lake I fish as they deliberately grub around/eat it every week. I suspect the clay in the lake contains a mineral or trace element the fish are really after and not just the clay itself which is just the carrier.
You can get the stuff for about £10/kg so who is going to try it
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In reply to Post #46
I have often thought of adding koi clay / montmorillonite clay to my baits a few times after keeping small koi years ago.
Another hunch/bait idea, backed up by scientific koi research and nature, they do like clay.
Maybe excessive boiling could do some damage to the mineral/s within our baits, so best keep boiling times on the low side ?
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I agree some decent yeasts or Things like kelp must help at all time’s of the year especially winter. Tumeric I think has a big edge in winter also for anti-oxidants and stress.
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In reply to Post #46
ive had a fixation with salt ever since I caught one of the biggest residents in the lake I fish. I used a solid bag with 1/3 rock salt and the rest just pellet.
was out 30mins before the rod bent round.
that fish wasn't caught again until the following year when I had it again on the same method at the same time of year. could just be coincidence but I get a feeling it wasn't.
I don't know nutritionally why carp crave salt but I imagine its only like a human needing it.
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In reply to Post #44
I believe they are still just as important to the well being of the fish as any other time of year. The fish, even if they are 'on the feed', will still eat less in colder water and hence effectively 'self regulate' the total volume they consume.
To me the vitamins and minerals are all part of making a well rounded HNV bait and, lets be honest, takes almost zero effort (and cost) to add to a half way decent base mix
I do believe that at certain times of the year the carp can be attracted to some minerals, almost certainly due to a natural lack of that minerals in the naturally environment. Salt pre and post spawning seems to be one of them but then I very rarely fish around them at that time of year (and if I do its probably with floaters) so have never gone into salt in any serious way.
Further to my mineral comment about Carp will eat clay, one assumes for the mineral content. I am fishing two lakes this year. One is almost a pure clay base and the other is known to be over 450 years old and is a little silty after all this time 
The clay lake was drained 18 months ago for various work to be done. The size of the 'holes' dug by the carp was huge and had to be seen to be believed. For years the carp have been seen to be digging around in these areas. One could say 'they are grubbing about to eat the bloodworm etc but with the water out it was clear these spots are just clay....no bloodworm or any other food source could be seen. The lake is now refilled and I spent time this year watching the carp grubbing about in these spots again. They seem to visit these spots several times a week to 'grub about' in them and I have caught from among them whilst they do this. Should we add montmorillonite clay to our baits for lakes like this? What do the carp eat in the 450 year old silty lake to get the same minerals?
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In reply to Post #44
to be honest I don't think it makes to much of a difference.
the carps metabolism is very slow in the colder water, id say the natural food that they have fed on for the past how many years will sustain this.
obviously it depends on water depth, weed, freshwater lakes, gravel pits etc.
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In reply to Post #43
What are people’s options and thoughts on vitamins and minerals importance in a winter bait...when a carps immune system can become quite low, before spring temperatures start rising.
None included at all, more added, more of the rare ones like vitamin B, Kelp and concentrated yeasts perhaps, no change at all/same all year round ?
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In reply to Post #42
Great thread chaps....keep it coming!
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In reply to Post #40
I couldn't agree more about the difference between batches.. I've done my active bait and it's caught more than I imagined and you think oh yes nailed it and then the next batch dies on its feet. The only conclusion that I came too was that the bacteria/wild yeasts that came into contact with it have good and bad effects on the bait. I did play around with adding a small amount of salt to kill off some of the bad bacteria but obviously will slow the general activity so a trade off is needed.
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In reply to Post #40
I've never tried brewing but my baking has been pretty consistent, my sourdough pizzas were a hit during lockdown lol.
There are many more variables at play in this mix though, 4 out of 6 ingredients in the initial mix will ferment on their own given time, heat, moisture and a closed environment. That's where a mother dough would come in to play should results warrant the effort
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In reply to Post #37
Don't want to put you off trying but so many variables to consider that batch to batch and day to day variability will be the problem IMHO.
Home brewing has been going on for centuries and even then you can have a great batch one day and then follow the same recipe again and get a rubbish batch. With homebrew we can taste a duff batch but how will you know if your bait is a duff batch?
Notwithstanding the above if you get it working I would love to read how
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In reply to Post #38
I imagine the natural sugars and yeasts created using the active ingredients would be so attractive to carp.
also the enzymes in the mix with the active bacteria would breakdown the complex sugars in a carb based bait, should also be very soluble. could be on to something very good here.
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In reply to Post #37
Fascinating ideas here chaps!
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In reply to Post #36
If I have any success with it I may well do a mother dough.
As for gassing I think I have a plan for that, might take a bit of trial and error to get it right and I suspect it'll be time and temperature sensitive. I don't think they'll gas up much in cold water tbh, I'll want most of the reaction to happen prior to rolling/cooking
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In reply to Post #32
are you looking at using them for a soak?
or an active ingredient inside the bait? very very interesting way to look at it in terms of a mother dough, I imagine constantly feeding it as you do with a mother dough will only make it better in terms of yeasts.
I'm not sure how you could use it in a bait without it gassing badly though?
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In reply to Post #34
My latest batch of CSL from AA baits is seriously active. It’s expanding in the fridge I have to release the pressure daily. It’s A slightly thinner consistency than normal.
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In reply to Post #32
My understanding of CSL production is the active components are not that well controlled. The temperature and pressure is controlled for a set amount of time which is why we have all seen massive batch variability.
Don't BAF make the wheat hydro in the UK? Maybe ask them.
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In reply to Post #32
Now I follow you
I think you can do better than that.
Best of luck 
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In reply to Post #30
Hi Sam, celmanax is plan c 
Baf offer active csl and hydro wheat, if these are genuinely active it should be possible to use them as a 'starter', like a sourdough bread mother dough. I was asking whether the yeasts and bacterial cultures within these liquids would be specific to that particular starch type.
I've been using another natural source of yeast mixed with water to get my usual freezer baits kicking, I'm looking to utilise this further in a largely carb based bait. On paper the mix looks a bit lola ferrari, but a couple of ingredients and a quite different process 'should' make it work well I think and offer pretty decent nutrition
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Please keep this conversation going Really enjoying it.
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In reply to Post #29
Hard to accertain what you’re asking exactly but I’d have a look at Celmanax if I were you.
Hard to get hold of the pure stuff, but VERY worth while.
PM me if you get stuck
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OK so my next question for the experts
How specific are the yeasts and cultures found in csl and hydro wheat? If I want HW to kick off in the mix is it best to add a good dose of wheat, likewise csl with maize.
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In reply to Post #27
My bait is just a part of the diet. Other things in that diet will have an effect on the gut transit times and I can do nothing about them. Does that make sense?
It makes perfect sense to me.
Glad to see it isn't just me  that likes to see what else is going on in the bait world, regarding the..... I do buy a few baits every year from various other manufactures. I like to try them out
I like your common sense approach very much.
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In reply to Post #26
ohh, good question
I have now written and deleted my answer 5 times...lets see if answer 6 makes anymore sense 
This is me talking about my bait, feeding style and level of fishing over the winter months. Others fish different waters in different ways. I stick to one, low'ish stocked, water and (try) and keep a steady trickle of bait/feed going in weekly.
I haven't sold bait for over 10 years now but when I did I had a small range to cover some different angling situations.
For me I do not overly concern myself with gut transit times any more in December than I do in July. I want to have an attractive and nutritious bait that I can rely on all year without chopping and changing too much (I will often add a little more oil in the summer). I do not believe that what I feed the fish is all they eat. My bait is just a part of the diet. Other things in that diet will have an effect on the gut transit times and I can do nothing about them.
Does that make sense?
Just to add I do buy a few baits every year from various other manufactures. I like to try them out, often on the odd occasion I fish easier club waters, along side my bait because I just can't resist trying others too I have 10Kg of a bait coming tomorrow which I will mix with my bait to feed over the next 6-8 weeks. I don't normally do this in the winter but this year is different in so many ways and I have more time for baiting up than in the last few years so why not
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In reply to Post #24
On a another note Pete, do you think the actual fibre/roughage/soluble content of ANY food fed to carp, and the related digestion & transit times are MORE important in cold winter temps or not.
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In reply to Post #22
Just because it’s lower in protein does not mean it’s lower in quality!
Something else to consider- not all protein is equal. As I’m sure you’re aware.
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In reply to Post #22
Hang on, are going around in circles
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In reply to Post #20
I’d say point 1 is even more valid when baiting regular to keep fish feeding!
Also think of this- if they eat more bait of a lower protein and keep in eating it with minimal “off feed” periods then they will net more protein anyway.
Not that I think protein is as important in winter as perhaps you do!
The diversify things even more- the main boilie I will be using this winter will be over 30% protein purely because I do not have the time to roll enough. So I’m certainly not saying it won’t work!
If I had the time I’d be on a lower protein mix though, and I’d be feeding more of it to the fish!
Recon I’d catch more too!
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In reply to Post #18
1- Carp will eat more in the winter if the protein and fat is kept low.
I remember reading a similar piece by John Baker on this theme.
But Is this because a carp is still instinctively is looking to fulfill its dietery requirements when it does decide to eat, in as few mouthfuls as possible ?
Hence the HNV scores so well. Therefore Saving energy.
Do carp just keep eating the lower quality baits, because it likes the taste more than nutritional value, that it just craps out with minimal benefit, rather than not eat for long periods of time and therefore burn up valuable fat reserves ?
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In reply to Post #19
I recon you could “get away” with higher oil too, but that doesn’t mean it’s optimal!
In my opinion.
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In reply to Post #18
>So if you drop the protein in winter for your pond fish why not do the same for the carp you fish for?
Because it would mean a complete change to the bait and the fish are used to it as it is. My pond fish would eat sawdust if I chucked it in so don't mind if I change the food. Also my pond is a 'closed' eco system and the filter would struggle to cope with more ammonia in the colder weather but that is very different to any lake or river full of other forms of life.
Is your point 1 valid if you still bait regularly and keep the fish 'feeding'? I would say possibly not based on results of people (like me) who fish through the winter on the same HNV bait and still catch there share of fish.
Point 2 I would only agree with if you are happy to lower what you call 'nutritionally viable' to a very low level for winter and assume you are fishing for carp that have almost stopped feeding altogether...maybe through a lack of HNV bait because the lake in question cannot be baited regularly 
Just to confuse more...if I was to fish a lake that I had not baited into the winter and is not being heavily fished by others I would almost certainly go with naturals (worms and maggots) 
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Just thinking about this a little more whilst eating lunch.
I have just run a traditional 'winter' mix through my spreedsheet. Now I 100% agree that you can't design a bait on a spreedsheet but I think it is interesting to compare some of these baits to try and understand what is working and what is not.
So a 'winter' mix of birdfood, semo, maize meal and a little Lamlac to give some solubility does give a lower crude protein content of 20% (lower than I guessed before) with an oil level of 11%. If you measure the quality of that protein by an AA analysis it if also very poor, the most the carp can utilise if 50% of that 20% i.e the bait only has 10% of it available to the carp, the rest will be crapped out for something else to eat later.
My 'HNV' bait that I have been using unchanged for quite a few years now (over 8 years at least) is >45% crude protein but an oil content of just over 9% (unless I add more rolling which I only tend to do in late spring or the middle of summer). In a perfect environment on a lovely sunny day over 80% of that protein can be utilised by mr and mrs carp
Maybe my bait works all year due to the lower oil levels The difference between the two baits on oil level is an increase of 20%.
Maybe with lower protein you can 'get away' with higher oil
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In reply to Post #15
So if you drop the protein in winter for your pond fish why not do the same for the carp you fish for?
My only points are these-
1- Carp will eat more in the winter if the protein and fat is kept low.
2- You can have a very nutritionally valuable bait that consists of 30% protein or lower.
I’d say that’s pretty hard to argue with but I’m very open to learn of someone can prove otherwise 
Good topic by the way
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In reply to Post #15
Happy memories but time and understanding moves on
So true Pete, that is why this forum is so good  Thought provoking
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In reply to Post #14
You could add in tiger nut flour and still keep fat low.
Of course you can, depends of the other oil content of the other ingredients/liquids in any mix.
I personally like the taste of tiger nut meal / flour in a bait.
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In reply to Post #10
I used to love the Savey seed mix with Bun Spice EA in it, I had my first 20 on that and it caught me a few that winter even on the coldest of nights with ice forming in the margins  Happy memories but time and understanding moves on
I am sure high carbs with a decent attractor package will catch fish. Will it out fish a bait that also feeds the carp? A lot of people now fish with HNV (notice I didn't say high protein, that is only part of an HNV bait to me) all year and the carp do not seem any the worse for it.
I feed my pond carp all year. I do change to a lower protein pellet for the winter but its still 31% crude protein. The fish will eat 3-4 times a week quite happily even in the coldest of weather. This makes me think that if I am going to carp fish in the winter I should feed something of some nutritional value Of course the metabolism slows right down in the colder temperatures but does it stop completely if nutrition is available?
>Also good anglers seem to catch on either bait
That is also very true but not something I have to worry about as I don't come into that class
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In reply to Post #13
You could add in tiger nut flour and still keep fat low.
Just because something works does not mean it’s optimal
So it doesn’t go against my thinking at all!
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In reply to Post #11
The tiger nut flour will be higher in oil than other ingredients, so ideally you wouldn't want to go too high with it on paper.
But again plenty of high fat nut baits, for example, seem to work in winter. Which goes against the idea line of thinking.
Today's options are that many of the low temperture/pre digested better quality fishmeals are more digestible than many other bland, rolling machine friendly ingredients.
Contrary to the old days of premier baits fishbase/oil slicks and silly amounts of fish oil, now many good fishmeal baits are more balanced and sensible to use all year round.
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In reply to Post #10
my fishmeal bait has similar quality's. nectarblend,milk powders, semo. I get a lovely texture to the bait.
I'm just never sure of fishmeals in the colder weather.
great reading on this topic though gents.
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In reply to Post #9
You could get that mix lower quite easily. Use a lower protein bird food, switch in some tiger nut flour etc.
I’m not saying that I would use that mix but you could certainly make it work.
Most good mixes take quite a bit of effort, at least they do for me!
I’m definitely not saying a higher protein mix won’t work, I’ve used many over winter. It’s just my preference to drop the protein down significantly.
I also think there’s more to a nutritional bait than just protein, particularly in winter.
I think this is one of the reasons why bait is so fascinating- the options are endless and people’s experiences and preferences can differ greatly.
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In reply to Post #9
Great post content, This is such a interesting topic Pete, and I always value your input on the subject rooting for proven HNV'S all year round.
Maybe the likes of Lucky Locky, Rob Maylin, Steve Allcott, Zenon and all the other Savay lads were onto something with the high percentage egg biscuit type, Red factor/Nectarblend/Cede/semo baits way back then.
Different baits to the norm.
Coarse texture for great flavour leakage, and soften up quickly, easy to digest & pass through the carp's system quickly, a bit of carbs, fats and vitamins/minerals, that maybe that is all they need for a quick snack over winter ?
or like you, you go in with a sound HNV balanced bait and trickle that in. Which is obviously better for then carps diet.
My biggest issue with winter fishing IMHO is the constant bait application, wether you are doing it on your own, or many anglers fishing said venue ( any bait a LNV or HNV bait ) to keep them looking.
Many times, on many venues, The carp will only be caught on what is being chucked in ( any bait a LNV or HNV bait )
Also good anglers seem to catch on either bait
Think it comes down to the individual angler, budget and what they have the most confidence in TBH.
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In reply to Post #8
Still not that easy to get really low protein. Just done a very quick 'back of envelop' mix with semo, soya, CLO, wheat germ, peanut meal and a little whey gel and it 31% protein (including eggs) and that's not including any liquid protein (which is part of the attraction so I don't want to count that). Not sure it will roll and even with the whey gel will be very soft.
My current mix is 46% crude protein and has worked all year for me in the past so just saying that you don't need to get too hung up on the less is better
I think there are two types of winter bait. That which you use in low volume and can be of low nutritional value (which anything below 30% will be, the AA profile will be rubbish and the carp just can't utilise any of it) but I plan to bait through the winter with at least a few kg a week so want to feed them something that does them good and keeps them going
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In reply to Post #7
Lots! Low protein bird food, wheat meal, oat meal, semo, low fat peanut meal, kelp, there’s lots of ingredients that are low enough in protein to make a mix that will carry a good winter attractor package whilst being digestible.
Of course aminos will not be balanced but this doesn’t bother me in the slightest when it comes to a winter bait.
Totally respect your views on this though Peter
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In reply to Post #5
Don't disagree but what do you put in a bait (or leave out?) to get the protein % below 30% (other than a 50/50 mix!)?
It's quite difficult to get below 30% so genuinely interested in a good mix that is below 30% finished bait.
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Thanks guys, the dry mix is looking around 25-30% protein and sub 15% lipids, possibly sub 10%
Interesting notes on spirulina, I was going to start at around 3% with it, on paper it looks a great protein source for winter. I've never gone in depth with flaa, but using the three main sources i have id hope to be fairly well balanced. I'll also have 10% soya for binding and moisture retention.
Re plasma/albumin, is there much difference between them in regards to the finished structure? I think I'll need one of them to hold the bait together, but I also need the bait to be porous as I think it's going to gas up like crazy. Generally I think freezing and thawing opens up the skin a bit, but I don't think all the 'live' elements will survive freezing.
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In reply to Post #1
For a feed bait in the depths of winter I’d shoot for under 30% total protein (including liquids, eggs etc) and you could very successfully go lower than that if you got creative. If we want to get technical this amount would vary depending upon where the protein came from and what state it was in (think predigested, free aminos etc).
You want the carp to keep eating plenty through the winter, this won’t happen as much if protein is too high.
Carbohydrate is easier for them to digest.
Lipids should be low, as previously mentioned.
A little toasted sesame is all I’d add in the way of lipids in winter, and I wouldn’t even do that on all mixes.
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In reply to Post #3
My conclusion is that it's better on paper than in practice.
Same here, 10% 
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In reply to Post #1
Just a couple of points:
1) Spirulina-keep the level low. I've mucked about A LOT with this over the last three years at all sorts of levels from a teaspoon to 10% of the mix. My conclusion is that it's better on paper than in practice. 10g is probably the best, on my view.
2) Amylase. Really useful. Alcotec Alpha Amylase. Very powerful, big temperature and pH spectrum. 0.5g per kilo is all you need.
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In reply to Post #1
Depending on the source and AA profile 35-45% protein level. I would be more worried about the lipids if you want a 'winter's bait. Personally I use the same bait all year
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I'm at an early stage of throwing together a cold water bait and have a couple of questions for the experts
Firstly, what protein% do you aim for with an easily digestible bait. So far the bulk of the protein will be from brocacel and supergold 60, and possibly some spirulina but I'm unsure on levels with this.
I also think I'm going to need an extra binder/hardener and am looking at blood plasma, egg albumen or a mix of both, which of these is the better binder, and would have the least impact on digestibility
The bulk of the mix is mostly carb, with liquids that have active yeast/bacteria cultures, but I'm also looking to add alpha amylase
What sort of dosage is used with this and what is the storage life of it.
As I say, I'm at an early stage and am just getting a rough idea on quantities of certain ingredients to keep things cost efficient
Thanks in advance
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