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 #66 31 Oct 2011 at 6.11pm | |   |
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In reply to Post #65
Yeah, I meant that I would totally skip concentrated milk proteins like whey, casein etc. in a bait that already have such a high protein content and also up the predigested and lower the Vitamealo.
All of the functional milk proteins can be easily substituted using much cheaper and equally function ingredients (for the that function). For instance, whey gel binds and hardens, but so does gluten and blood powder together. 30 mesh hardens a bait, but no more than polenta or coarse rice or semo flour, costing a fraction... some people believe that carp love the taste of milk proteins, if you're one of those go for it. I don't put particular high faith in the attraction properties of most milks - maybe with the exception of calcium caseinate, and that's only because Hutchie have praised it no end. Even Rod attributed the effectiveness of CaCas to it being soluble, not necessarily because of it's inherent taste/smell.
Vitamealo is most often used to increase the solubility of a bait, i.e. increasing the leakage of food signals.
I haven't been able to do a fair comparison between milk powders like Vitamealo and predigested fish meal, as the lakes I fish these days are extremely low stocked with few takes per season. But my intuition and general experience with bait making tells me that a soluble predigested would beat Vitamealo easily. I plan to try using 20% predigested. Can't see why it should only be used at such low levels - unless of course you need a hard insoluble (less attractive) bait for some specific purpose.
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#65 31 Oct 2011 at 1.53pm | | |
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In reply to Post #64
I think he means
100g Pre digest
75g Vitamealo
rather than the other way round.
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#64 31 Oct 2011 at 1.24pm | | |
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In reply to Post #55
Wouldn't bother with low levels of milk proteins with all that fish protein in already and I would up the predigested to at least 10% at the cost of Vitamealo. It's a question of solubility and I'd rather have that from predigested fish meal than from milk powders.
Do you mean you would leave out the vitamealo and up the pre digest, or lower the milk to get the extra fish in?
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#63 31 Oct 2011 at 1.20pm | | |
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We seem to be having trouble deciding between blood powder, blood plasma, and WPC.
Blood powder is the cheapest. And from reading seems to have a better protein content of the 3. But being a bit of a noddy, the amino acid profiles are double dutch to me.
Plasma powder seem expensive and i dont know much about it, but seems to be only available in a kilo. So is the blood powder, but it is half the price.
WPC seem excellent to, but is the most expensive of the 3. Im wondering if we need 2 or even 3 hardeners in our bait, and could get away with just the one. Or will the bait be a better one using 2 or 3?
My preference would be to use just blood powder, as i feel we are using it as a functional ingredient more than trying to get protein, or amino profiles from it, which i feel are coming from the fishmeals, and other ingredients.
Any thoughts? bearing in mind that with the WPC or blood plasma the cost of the ingredients is about £6-7 more, per 10kg mix, with 650g left over, if you see what i mean.
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#62 31 Oct 2011 at 8.39am | | |
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In reply to Post #55
Interesting thoughts Ulrik 
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 9901 |  | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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#61 31 Oct 2011 at 8.35am | | |
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In reply to Post #57
@ Frenzy, you mean you haven't worked your way through those bags of chilli and garlic yet??!!
lol..no mate...but i have been trying.
Ive got Mar Peche in a few wks time, so ive been giving the Hemp a bit of Garlic treatment...!!!
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#60 31 Oct 2011 at 3.34am | | |
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I love the smell of garlic and if i had enough time i would serious consider adding some to a bolie mix. Im currently using the source as i love the meaty, bbq smell and have been really since ive been fishing for 5ish years. Nash amber is a nice strawberry smell and i have heard Jason from A-baits uses some sort of amber strawberry in one of his mixes, i may have to get on A-baits next season. 
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#59 31 Oct 2011 at 3.27am | | |
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In reply to Post #49
Of course the garlic will overpower the chocolate cream and tangerine.
I agree mate. Not the best statement to make to try and show the power of the garlic powder i use.
However, my mix (dare i say) is the same level of garlic with
Cajun Crawfish
Butyric Acid
Mexican Onion EO
And it over powers that.  Im just glad winters coming now so i can use my seed mix with much nicer flavours and EO'S (Thanks Uncle Ken BTW). 
Ive been smelling like a fishy, pickled onion, sweaty sock, Garlic monster for long enough now. 
Going to use Strawberry all next year i think.
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#58 31 Oct 2011 at 3.03am | | |
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In reply to Post #57
Garlic Powder
This is similar to the one i use. Its a bit more expensive, but should be about the same quality wise. The one i got was from Coventry Walsgrave Extra. It might have been on offer, i cant remember. I drive a Tesco truck to stores all over the the place, so get to go into a few different stores. You'll be supprised what i find in them. My last find was Semolina, at 89p for 1.5kg bags (on offer). Needless to say i had a few bags.
I am starting to rate Garlic more and more. It was recommended to me by a friend who's made boilies since the start. Shame is, he's got the 'old school secret squirel' sytle about him, and does not let much slip. But he recommended it, and now i like to use it if i can. Im still messing about with Fenugreek to. Mixing it with ratio of Garlic.
You would need to ask someone who knows a bit more about it why the fish seem to like these herbs, and spices. They must get some benefit from them, and as they are quite cheap and seem to make a difference to bait, i am starting to use more of them.
I think your right. It may be best to let the user decide on the liquid side of the bait. There again is so many good options it would be hard to recommend one package. I like lots of different things in my bait and suppose others have their favourites to. I will say this so anyone looking at this thread can see it. I have used a lot of Hemp Oil lately. I think its well worth looking at for part of the liquid side of the bait. It also seems to be a good attractor in its own right. (And put it in the fridge, it does not solidify  )
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#57 30 Oct 2011 at 11.29pm | | |
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@ Frenzy, you mean you haven't worked your way through those bags of chilli and garlic yet??!!
@ Nelliman, i just get my garlic from the spice section, shall have to check out the whole foods because yours sounds cheaper.
I realise price is a consideration but £1.30 for 400g isn't expensive. Although i would save a little by swapping WPC for blood plasma. Very similar properties without adding a colour or flavour (a benefit in my eyes)
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 9901 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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#56 30 Oct 2011 at 10.07pm | | |
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In reply to Post #55
do you find any differncies in types of blood?
or do you know where the blood is derived from
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#55 30 Oct 2011 at 6.53pm | | |
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In reply to Post #54
I usually don't use much more than 3% blood powder as it starts dominating the bait, and the powder I use will make the bait extremely dark at higher levels. It stinks horrific but is one of the best and cheapest hardeners around.
Wouldn't bother with low levels of milk proteins with all that fish protein in already and I would up the predigested to at least 10% at the cost of Vitamealo. It's a question of solubility and I'd rather have that from predigested fish meal than from milk powders.
You should also consider trying other fishmeals out. LT94 is a good fishmeal yes, but it's way overhyped with totally ridiculous claims about it being head and shoulders better than others. It seems to be used in 90% of fishmeal based baits, so if you wish to stand out use something else. I have tried many equally good mealsl my favorite being sandeel meal - brilliant!
Don't rate soya flour as it makes the baits go soft imo. Will rather stick 2-3% of gluten in there if it wont roll. 10% of polenta is included in most of my recipes as it aids rolling, hardens the boiled baits and makes baits easier to break down by the carp.
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 9901 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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#54 30 Oct 2011 at 6.40pm | | |
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In reply to Post #51
i'll get me coat.....
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#53 30 Oct 2011 at 6.19pm | | |
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the blood would also harden the bait, so I am not sure the WPC would still be needed. maybe replace it with a casien milk protien.
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#52 30 Oct 2011 at 6.18pm | | |
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In reply to Post #41
If you look at MM's recepie, if you combine our blood and WPC its nearly the same as he is using for WPC alone. Our 85g to his 75g. Do we really need both or would it be best to find out which is the better for our needs and just use 1? I have not used blood powder before, only read a bit on CC's website. It also sounds as though blood may change the color of our bait, which i never thought of up till now, although i don't know if were using enough blood powder to affect our bait in any real way.
Playing with a similar recipe I found that WPC and powdered blood turned out a fairly hard dry bait that took took on water very quickly.
As far as the colour goes, with the blood powder the bait will be a mid-brown colour but yes once in the water it would end up a light beige with a dark specks from the kelp and CLO .
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