 TC and controling fish
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4,217 views
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Coming from a barbel anglers perspective, test curves tend to give us a guide as to what conditions a rod is more suited to, rather than the size of the fish targeted. Balanced tackle being more relevant, the old rod tc over line breaking strain seems to work well. Although that doesn't necessarily take into account snags etc.
It also doesn't account for the drag of the reel being used. I have a few(!) barbel rods of different brands and tc's from 1 1/4 to 2.5lb. Some suit smaller rivers, others are for floods etc. The one thing they all have in common is the ability to play a fish and stop it before the rod locks up. The only way I've found of doing this is to set the reel clutch, whatever the reel is, by tying up a complete rig on the bank before fishing, and hooking up to a ring or zip on my bag. Then gently lifting into it until I feel the rod begin to lock up. At this point I'll turn the drag know so it just about gives line.
I'm not claiming barbel don't take line because they will, and when I feel i can let them during the fight in mid river they can, but this method of setting the balance of the rod and line and clutch means you can give maximum power at the beginning of the fight to gain control at the start. It's not perfect but I'd say it works the vast majority of the time.
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Adding to below and a shared opinion test curve etc is irrelevant its mindset
90% of the time the problem is folk are not close enough to there rods and not brutal enough in controlling the carp.
As soon as hooked up close to snags you have to be stepping back to drag it away from the snag with clutch completely locked up.
Over the years I watched on small rivers folk like Dave Currell catch big barbel including the lady. He always told me if you give anything you deserve to loose.
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In reply to Post #42
Exactly, the setup is to suit requirements.
But, how many 16 year olds are fishing for doubles in farm ponds with 3.5 - 4lb tc? Utterly ridiculous imo I’d rather use a float rod!
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In reply to Post #41
My main 4 rod setup are 12ft CFX Continentals, they don’t have a test curve as such, but are rated at 3-5oz casting weight, with a firm progressive action. Only reason I’ve got such heavy rods is because I fish a great big reservoir, where you can have massive winds blowing from any direction, making casting accurately at any sort of distance during the day, nigh on impossible and because of that, would quite often wait until the evening to cast out. I was wasting so much of my bank time not actually fishing. Heavier rods, capable of punching out heavier leads on heavier lines is the way forward during the summer months with 16hrs+ of strong winds at times. In the spring and autumn months (I don’t do winters anymore) I change over to my 3 rod setup of 12ft 3.25lb CFX’s, which to be honest are much nicer to play fish on. That said, the progressive action of the Continentals is a good compromise over a fast taper, out and out distance rod and the playing action is acceptable, albeit with slightly less control than the 3.25’s.
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In reply to Post #38
Bang on, although the lower TC rod puts ‘more’ pressure on in general, you’ve got way more margin for error through give in the rod when playing the fish. 4lb broom handle when a fish powers off on a lunge? Far less give, far less margin of error.
Also worth noting when the weed is up, TH uses old rods with more give in them. The reason, to use that to exert pressure on the fish itself, rather than hoiking the whole lot through including half the weedbed itself as you would a 4lb TC rod.
Horses for courses and each to their own, but I think this push into higher test curves is in part brands, and in part to accommodate the divvys who want to cast 6oz leads in farm ponds.
I cannot imagine 10ft 4lb rods are much fun playing a fish in comparison to the chap above on his ballistas
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In reply to Post #39
Realistically you don't, it's just tackle companies convincing us we do
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In reply to Post #36
True, I just cant imagine a situation where'd id need 4lb TC rods I guess.
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In reply to Post #10
I fully understand what he's saying, but, and it's a huge but, all of the guys that have suffered multiple 'hook pulls' at my place, over eleven years, have been using higher TC and/or fast taper rods. Absolute fact.
I'm not the only one who has noticed it either.
Use a 2.5tc Baby Ballista and you will 100% suffer fewer 'hook pulls' than if you use FMJ's
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In reply to Post #34
Depends what your situation is, if I'm flicking chods about in winter and spring the weed is all dead and I'll use 10ft 3lb scopes, the furthest I'm casting is 13-17 wraps so that's fine but when the Canadian is up having those extra beans is a good thing, average fish in there is low 30, loads of Canadian solid bags
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Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.
The trade off is worth it in my eyes.
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I've used my R1FT'S for the first time this weekend.
I wasn't casting big distances under arm flicks. But the two fish I had were buried in weed and one had to get pulled away from a snag.
3.5tc performed admirably and I felt in control all the way. Horses for courses I suppose, but I was happy to have the extra backbone for sure.
Incredible blanks 👌
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In reply to Post #33
4lb TC, Jesus, I don’t fancy that in all honesty.
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I fish solid bags quite a lot when I can, I have a set of 12ft 4lb kiazen greens which I find great for solid bags. The 2nd time out on my syndicate I had a 43lb common that was adamant in taking me in to the snags to my left, rod tip under the water and just holding it without letting it have any line bent the rod right over and it decided that it wasn't getting in the snags under the trees. I'm sure if I wasn't using the 4lb TC I wouldn't be able to stop it from getting under there
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In reply to Post #31
It’s curious that playing carp on fly tackle feels more vulnerable than on low test curve rods or feeder rods, but I have never worked out why. Any thoughts?
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In reply to Post #1
You can definitely apply more pressure with a shorter rod (or one that bends more easily so the it has a shorter length when under load).
But a higher tc rod lets you feel in control.
I tried fishing for double figure carp on a 4 weight 7.5 ft fibreglass fly rod. I felt completely out of control but only had to give 6 - 10 feet of line.
On a proper carp rod and fixed spool reel with a great drag I felt in control but they made 20 yard runs.
Rods are a second form lever LINKY POO™ https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/z24b9qt/revision/1
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In reply to Post #24
I've seen the over the shoulder method in action on the ebro, but the walking never stopped until the fish were flapping on the bank.
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In reply to Post #25
Unsure these physics wok in water, you could tow me round a swimming pool on 15lb mono
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In reply to Post #27
Don't mention that stuff, I tried "Illusion" for rigs about 20 years ago I think, I think a Stickleback could snap it, absolutely useless, I think they did improve it, but never tried it again. In fact, I hardly use anything from Korda, even their hooks would bend
But, my main lines for years have been "Ultima F1 Black in 0.35mm 18lb" for snags and off the beach (never use 15lb, it snaps like cotton) and Asso Fast Sinking in 0.35mm 16lb for open water, but, its like tow rope and snaps well above that.
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In reply to Post #25
Sounds like you've been using korda line 😬
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In reply to Post #25
Simply elevating your rod tip a little so there's some bend in it will stop that from happening as your rod tip will act as a kind of shock absorber. Plus snag fishing with .35 line which is usually 12lb isn't really a very good idea
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Believe me, a fish will snap 0.35mm line on a take when snag fishing locked up and the fish is heading away from you at speed, once the line is stretched, you will get a "zero stretch jerk" so basically once you total the weight of your fish to the momentum etc, your line will just snap like a piece of cotton.
If you google it, you will see the phsics behind it all. Basically, you could pick up a 15lb weight on a piece of 15lb line and it will hold it, but just lift that weight a few inches and drop it, the line will snap.
Thankfully though it does not happen often and when its happened to me, its to a snag midwater wherby a fish can get a good head of steam up away from you, and the bigger the fish and the faster its going and it does not have to be travelling as fast as a smaller fish, more chance of it happening.
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A lot of carp anglers in the situation that you are describing whilst snag fishing are often the ones who actually allow the fish to gain sanctuary in the snags, just by not giving the fish suitable welly on the bite (not saying you at all, just what I've seen personally). If you are fishing hit and hold up against a snag or pads, pick up the bucking rod on the bite, put the rod over your shoulder, turn away from the lake and walk hard. You will pull that carp away from anything. It can't beat you in a strength match... Not unless you, the angler let it. Your lovely rods will do the rest.
In your own words you can't snap .40 mono, and it's funny how little pressure you can actually exert on a bent rod in reality lbs wise. To move them away from a snag just do as I described. You can walk a 50lb+ carp pretty easily once you take the first step. Once you have walked them to the back of your swim or a suitable distance you can turn around and start playing the fish.
You certainly will not suffer a hook pull. You will have slightly more trouble getting the hook out. But it's better than a lost one.
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In reply to Post #21
I can’t say I’ve ever heard of anyone having their line snapped on a take. I mean a straight pull with .40 mono would pull the head off the fish before the line snapped.
My issue was simply bad luck, rather than the rod being soft. The more I mull it over the hook would have likely pulled no matter what rod I was using.
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If your rod is not pointed directly at the spot you are fishing then you are not locked up.
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Its one of the biggest problems I have found over the years, fishing locked up whilst snag fishing and getting control of a fish immediatley after the take and trying to get the rod up or to the side to take control and using the bend in the rod.
I find it worse fishing to a snag in the middle of a pond, when the fish takes, it can "Run" away from you and despite the fact it cannot take line, it still seems to be going away from you like a "Train" with lots of momentum, probably because of line stretch and the fact, it might be rising up in the water. Because of that, it makes it hard to get your rod up and your easilly "Pointed" resulting in a hook pull or your line "exploding" with an almighty crack. Giving line is not an option as the fish then gets more chance of getting into the snag.
My answer to that issue is if possible, fish with your rods well back from the waters edge. then when you get the rod and pick it up, you can take a couple of steps forward whilst raising the rod, not giving the fish any line etc and maintaining pressure. Trying to fish with about a 45 degree angle was not successful as it was still hard to get the rod up or even out to the side.
Snag fishing up to snags along a bank like rushes and reeds is not so much of a problem so long as they do not come away from the bank too far, the fish can only go so far from you as the bank stops it racing off so it can only go left, right or towards you.
One of my worst experiences was fishing to the edge of a thick reed bed about 10 yards to the right of my swim, I was sat watching my rod, from directly behind it, all of a sudden my rod top arced round and before I could even touch my rod despite it being in arms reach, my line just exploded with a crack. I never fished that spot again.
And to put it bluntly, I stopped snag fishing years ago, sitting there all the time next to the rods is not relaxing and then on a night, recasting into a more open spot of water so that you can get some sleep and then in a morning, cast back to the snag.....it is not for me
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In reply to Post #18
They do explain that in the video obviously. Stretchy nylon would of no doubt given a slightly less of a reading. But even with the stretch in the nylon. There would still of been more pulling power in a softer rod. Granted not the best thought out video. But the idea is there..
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In reply to Post #10
They're really good and well explained. Maybe this is why I've always felt in more control with a higher t/c rod because the length of it isn't as compressed as a rod that arcs around.
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https://youtu.be/cp6b_AhxVGI?is=BF-uNYdeKuLdM6bm
Worth a watch this. With the late Alan Taylor and Lee Jackson. Shows how much pressure can be applied with diffrent TC rods with differing actions.
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In reply to Post #7
Rod angle and the arc in which a fish can travel can also make a difference when fishing 'locked up'
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In reply to Post #13
If I'm fishing locked I'll use back wind to give them a little bit but not too much.
I also use the rod like a lever tip under the water and to the left or right pointing at 7/8oclock or 4/5oclock and when the fish lunges let the tip move through the water but try and keep the line and tip submerged.
Just as the lunge ends pull the rod back and recover some line.
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In reply to Post #12
Poorly set how? Too tight or slack?
They were tight given I was effectively snag fishing
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I have always thought it's a few things
Stretch in the line
Clutch/back wind set properly
Distance between you and the fish
Luck
Finally, if you're fishing with rods you are familiar with, you will know how far they will go, if your using a mates chances are you don't.
Imho being flat rodded is almost always due to a poorly set clutch which if you're unlucky will lead to hook pulls. Test curve of a rod doesn't come into the equation
But I wouldn't over analyse it, just dust yourself off and go again.
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In reply to Post #10
Interesting
ok, I'm a bit simple, I might have this wrong, so...
According to Mr Tunley:
A soft rod puts less pressure on us but more on the fish; therefore, a soft rod can potentially lead to more hook pulls. A stiff rod puts less pressure on the fish, but more on us.
So in my situation where the rod hooped over and the carp took off, I piled the pressure on and the hook pulled - my fault. I had to in an effort to prevent it snagging me up which failed.
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In reply to Post #5
Through action rod exerts more force than a fast taper of the same length & absorbs lunges better as well.
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Imho using beefier rods and stronger line to "stop" fish in these situations is likeley to result in mouth damage.
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In reply to Post #6
How do you mean?
I was pretty much locked up, fishing against the pads.
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In reply to Post #1
The reason it flat rodded you is because you didn’t have your drag set of flicked the anti reverse off in time. The one that got away lol
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In reply to Post #2
Great reply, cheers.
As you say, a higher TC rod wouldn't have stopped the fish bolting for the pads, nor would it have prevented a hook pull.
It's the first loss of the season for me on what is quite a tricky water.
It's also the weediest water I've fished since getting the Acurixs, so maybe there's an element of getting used to such fishing, versus a non-weedy water where they can take plenty of line without issue.
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IMO
A through action 3lb will be “softer” than a 2.75 fast taper rod. So less prone to hooks pulling out.
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In reply to Post #2
Interesting comment, and I think you are correct, if the hook is going to pull out the tc of a rod will not make a difference.
But what if the hook is secure and not going to pull? In this scenario a higher tc rod or a rod that genuinely locks up even if a lower tc (my preference) will allow you to stop fish reaching snags, weeds, etc. This is certainly my experience.
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In reply to Post #1
I am a strong believer in this - but you will probably get better written counter arguments and because this is a hobby horse of mine I don’t have the energy to argue ;0)
All I will say, is that if you boil down your recent experience was it really more power you needed? Hook pulls happen, so if your rod locked up and couldn’t cope - why would a stronger rod have helped? In theory, you’d have still pulled out and maybe earlier even. If a rod takes 4lb to lock up, that is a hell of a lot of pressure on end tackle and line, your 2.75 exerted the pressure quicker, it’s you more in control, a quality rod like yours s (in my opinion) the same as a heavy test curve rod, when you are locked up, and unless you go big snag hooks, industrial line and the rigs I don’t get the difference.
I sacrifice test curve only for range, never to bully and have more control. If you’d had the same scenario with a bungee and a Range Rover, you’d have still have pulled out. I had 4 fish yesterday to low 30s against a short island margin, with water levels low they kite across the margin looking to snag on the exposed roots, 2-75 torrix 10 footers and 16lb Flouro and I felt entirely in control and the initial panic was almost enjoyable! On another day I might as you did lose one, but I firmly believe that the end result would have been the same with beefier rods, and my regret would have been slightly different, did I lay into too much.
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Someone set my mind at ease...
Lost a fish this morning that flat-rodded me and did me in a set of pads. Gutted but retrieved the rig, so all is well.
I use 2.75lb Acurix rods which whilst lovely sometimes leave me feeling a little undergunned.
I know people say you can apply more pressure with a lower TC rod (?), but that doesn't feel the case.
Thoughts?
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