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 #58 15 May 2022 at 4.54pm | |  |   |
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In reply to Post #55
I bet you it’ll happen when milks now prices are sky high, some unscrupulous suppliers will no doubt cut the Caseins with something like lamlac. Easy to distinguish if you know what to look for but it’ll probably happy as milks are set to be 400 a sack trade by the end of tge year
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#57 15 May 2022 at 9.17am | | | |
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With a little thought and planning homemade hydros aren't that hard to do. If using papain and bromelain then pH is pretty much ok around 7. A blender, a thermostatic baby bottle warmer and bottle, water and enzymes are all thats needed. Granted youll only be able to do smallish amounts in 1 bottle but it's pretty quick so over a few days you can amass a litre or so. It only gets a bit more tricky if you want to add pepsin, trypsin which do require pH change.edit, you'll obviously need substrate blended to a slurry and mixed with the water around 50/50 will work well
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#56 15 May 2022 at 9.13am | | | |
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In reply to Post #47
 Sorry I shouldnt laugh
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#55 15 May 2022 at 8.04am | | | |
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In reply to Post #53
A lot of firms add 10-15% water
Can echo that, had a few myself over the years 
My advice, try and buy direct from the manufacturer as possible or the next link in the supply chain, probably no different to drugs, cut and cut and cut!
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#54 14 May 2022 at 7.11pm | | | |
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In reply to Post #51
not so sure about that, its not a violent reaction you just need to check the temperature and PH and keep it going until you're satisfied its done. there are food warmers and blanket warmers on the market that'll keep a small space warm enough...
he warned though its a potent exercise and you will lose friends haha
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#53 14 May 2022 at 7.10pm | | | |
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In reply to Post #49
You hydrolyse something via hydrolysis, you create a specific environment and add enzymes to a mixture of your chosen material and water.
The length of time, temperature, PH, water to material ratio etc all have a bearing on the finished product.
As a small bait firm Im lucky enough to have contacts and be able to order very fresh hydrolysates in some case direct from manufacturer.
I typically use up about 60-75% of it in the baits, the rest I sell on, this ensures stock rotation and keeps costs down.
I sell some blends for example, as individual products but always a blend of true hydros and not watered down at all. some blends of oils, spices, hydros etc are worded and marketed as such as and when I sell them.
A lot of firms add 10-15% water and this thins it down and increases profit margins and consumers are none the wiser. its completely unpoliced so its down to the integrity of the purveyor.
I have made quite a few hydros in my time, Im lucky enough to have an old service trolley fro ma caterers with temp control so in theory could do about 100l at a time, but im no where near as good as the people who do it for a living for the feed industry by the several tonne batches.
A lot of the "hydros" you see on facebook are glycerine, dye and flavour, when challenged they claim "hydro" isnt a technical term so doing nothing wrong.....alright lol.
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#52 14 May 2022 at 7.04pm | | | |
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In reply to Post #51
In addition, this is if you want to use a bought powder and hydrolyse it further.
In industry they don't start from powder, e.g fish hydrolysates start from fish wastes...
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#51 14 May 2022 at 6.39pm | | | |
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In reply to Post #50
I cannot imagine that is an easy task without specialist equipment. Or you could just buy they from BAF or similar.
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#50 14 May 2022 at 6.16pm | | | |
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In reply to Post #49
Mix them up with water, add enzymes en control the pH and temperature during the hydrolyzes.
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 10584 |  | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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#49 14 May 2022 at 6.02pm | | | |
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In reply to Post #41
a question
so how to do hydrolyse your ingredients into liquids to use of ease being a small bait firm?
genuine question
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#48 14 May 2022 at 4.25pm | | | |
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In reply to Post #44
you'll never see a fish react as positively to a flavouring as a hydro, Ive tried, by scandi friend has tried, and people in the aquaculture industry have tried
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#47 14 May 2022 at 1.26pm | |  1 | |
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In reply to Post #46
A lovely dipped pva stocking came off the hook, onto my head and down my shoulder while casting, certainly something I’ve never managed before, glad it’s only a day session, it stinks to high heaven.
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#46 14 May 2022 at 1.04pm | | | |
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In reply to Post #45
Ok I’ll bite how did you get it in your hair?
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#45 14 May 2022 at 11.18am | | | |
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Do not get canalus liquid in your hair. Glad the lake I’m fishing is a lovely clear gravel pit, wouldn’t fancy having to wash that out in a mud puddle.
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#44 14 May 2022 at 9.19am | | | |
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In reply to Post #41
We will have to hopefully agree to differ on the hydros, on the flavours I'm afraid I'm too old now to worry about the science of flavours, some work really well, some are a waste of time and most are average at best. The base of the flavour is no guide to its effectiveness. I've found a few over the last 40 years and stick with these, unfortunately many are no longer available so the list gets smaller as does my stock of them. But I have found a few current ones to be promising.
I'm intrigued by your comment on peptides
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#43 14 May 2022 at 9.13am | | | |
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In reply to Post #1
They are good and available from non-carp companies, been around for many years.
The uses really are whatever you want, I add them to particles, my hook baits, over free bait, I soaked leadcore & leads in them, used them neat etc.
Cheap as well.
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#42 14 May 2022 at 9.08am | | | |
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In reply to Post #39
Hydro wheat is very dense, liver and some fish ones are similar but not quite as heavy. Even cheaper of course is Molasses, not a Hydro but a very dense liquid and certainly very useful.
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#41 13 May 2022 at 11.12pm | | 1 | |
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In reply to Post #38
You need to fish more with them Christian, a lot of my customers are very successful short session anglers, and the two that I would say are the best among them spend atleast as much on liquids as they do boilies, nearly always hydros too. I’d say the flavour is largely to catch the angler in my experience, unless you know the make up of the flavour and that it won’t change how can you possibly rely on it for consistency? Plus then there’s subgroups, nature identical, natural, synthetic, extracts, concentrates, esters etc Where as a hydrolysis of shrimp, or certain livers, meats, vegetables etc is exactly that. I think there is more merit in isolating the compounds in flavours
I think people are guilt of not using them enough either, I think the more you put in the better when it comes to adding to boilies.
Peptides are interesting 😏
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#40 13 May 2022 at 10.39pm | | 1 | |
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In reply to Post #38
You're not in a minority of one, I'll make that 2. I've mentioned it before that I firmly believe that the organic compounds within hydros etc are what gives them an edge. Aa's do play a part but the taste/palatability is king imho. Surely if it was just about ffaa then we could just add them in powdered form for instant attraction but it won't work as well as hydro...can only be down to taste.
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#39 13 May 2022 at 10.24pm | | | |
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In reply to Post #15
What´s the heaviest hydro going ?
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#38 13 May 2022 at 9.19pm | | | |
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In reply to Post #37
I agree that hydros, I am starting to prefer powder but also liquid, are beneficial for feed intake and growth, but I think I might be in a minority of one in thinking this is because they enhance the taste/palability rather than adding attraction of our baits.
When I look at why these products are used in our food and in the pet and animal food industry it is very definitely for increasing palability. Look at vecon or Braggs aminos, both hydrolysed vegetable protein and used to add taste to our foods.
Breaking down protein rich ingredients by hydrolosis makes them more nutritionally available and will help growth but from the (very) few data sheets I have seen very few free aminos are released, peptides yes, free aminos no. I would be very happy to hear that peptides also have attraction properties but I cannot remember anyone ever saying so. Of course the small amount of free aminos might be enough but that is not my experience.
They are obviously very worthwhile ingredients but I remain to be convinced they are of any great value for short term attraction.
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#37 13 May 2022 at 8.26pm | | | |
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In reply to Post #36
If they would mention the average Dalton of the proteins/peptides one would be already much wiser. But I assume they will sell less hydros.
Nevertheless, many scientific papers discussing hydros and extracts find that they are benificia' towards feed intake and growth.
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#36 13 May 2022 at 8.02pm | | | |
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In reply to Post #35
You’re correct, further work is needed but was more informing him the data exists to be able to make an educated choice with regards to hydrolysates ?
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#35 13 May 2022 at 7.55pm | | | |
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In reply to Post #33
Do the Datasheets specify the amount of 'free' amino acids?
I thought they just specify the amino content regardless of being a 'free' or bond amino acid
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#34 13 May 2022 at 5.03pm | | | |
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In reply to Post #27
Either Calanus or one of two I’m keeping to myself currently, non marine though.
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#33 13 May 2022 at 5.02pm | | | |
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In reply to Post #29
The data is avaliable for every hydro direct from manufacturer. Several data sheets exist for the same products.
With regards to the dried hydros, if pure, every bit as valid as liquid ones.
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#32 13 May 2022 at 4.53pm | | | |
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In reply to Post #28
What kind of shelf life are you guys getting and how do you know if it’s gone? I keep in cool garage (no fridge) but look at them and think mmmm shall I
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#31 13 May 2022 at 11.38am | | | |
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In reply to Post #26
Pure Calanus Liquid mixed with minamino 
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#30 13 May 2022 at 11.24am | | | |
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In reply to Post #28
From a quick google it seems aabaits are the cheapest I can find, I haven’t dedicated my life to looking.
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#29 13 May 2022 at 9.23am | | | |
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In reply to Post #25
Nick, this is the bit I don't get, you say hydros are full of feeding triggers and free aminos, okay, I am not convinced about the free aminos, peptides yes free aminos... I'd like to see the data sheets to be convinced. I do agree about feeding triggers though but they are also in the powdered versions so adding a liquid version is just adding more but at a lesser concentration.
If free aminos are important, and personally I think they are, then adding an ingredient like Keramine HD will add far more free aminos than any Hydro would.
Dropping flavours is okay in a campaign bait but try doing it in a ball of semo/Soya and see the effect. As a short term (24 hours) attractor a good flavour is hard to beat so why not add it to every bait.
I do note that in another post you mention (and I agree) that the addition of minamino made a significant difference, I'm not surprised minamino is a flavoured syrup with a few free amino acids.
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#28 13 May 2022 at 7.58am | | | |
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In reply to Post #27
Either fish or liver. The calanus looks to be good and I'll probably source some when I'm running out to have a play about with, although the only local supply I can find is from a bait company which labels it as "pure" but then list ingredients including colours and flavours on the bottle so it's clearly not pure at all
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#27 13 May 2022 at 7.39am | | | |
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If you could only use one hydro that’s available now, which would you go for ?
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#26 12 May 2022 at 10.29pm | | | |
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In reply to Post #19
You can either make you own, or buy them, for consistency, bought is good. I weigh all of mine for extra consistency.
Calanus has had the strongest reaction I've seen from a marine hydrolysate on fish and is at its best at around 15g plus per egg in boilie mixes and then 50g soaked into freebies.
Symbiotically it seems to work very well with minamino, although I add this as a soak afterwards.
if rolling a six egg (300g) mix then
300g whole egg
90g calanus
then soak the finished boilies in a 50-50 mix of calanus and minamino for a few hours before freezing.
others all work, but given choice for me its the cal currenly
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#25 12 May 2022 at 10.22pm | | | |
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In reply to Post #15
Hydros are densely packed with soluble feeding triggers and free aminos, they are, without shadow of a doubt, the best liquid you can put in a boilie.
Whether you go by the science papers or the sheer volume of carp caught using them, or the bait companies promoting them ( there is more money to be made in flavours ) its VERY clear.
I seriously suggest you try eliminating all artificial flavours from a boilie, a trying different hydrolysates, you'll be surprised.
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#24 12 May 2022 at 6.39pm | | | |
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In reply to Post #22
Razzle readers wives was my go to grot mag in the early 90’s ..
Sometimes I would find the odd one in a bush .. discarded 
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#23 12 May 2022 at 5.51pm | | 1 | |
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In reply to Post #22
Hope they haven’t got access to my incognito search history….
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#22 12 May 2022 at 5.38pm | | | |
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In reply to Post #21
They watch people. You know last week when you popped into the newsagents for a copy of Razzle Readers Wives and that woman gave you a funny look. She works for BAF that’s why she was watching.
They are always watching.
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#21 12 May 2022 at 4.03pm | | | |
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In reply to Post #20
For some reason I keep getting fb adverts for BAF, for hydros, no idea how their targeted adverts read my mind….
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#20 12 May 2022 at 4.00pm | | | |
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In reply to Post #19
I use 2 combined. And get them from British aquafeeds.
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#19 12 May 2022 at 3.57pm | | | |
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So now most of us have come to the conclusion that hydros are good, where is best to source them from. Can/is it worth mixing two different types, are some types better than others?
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#18 12 May 2022 at 2.56pm | | 2 | |
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In reply to Post #17
I can think of one person that "knows" it all......
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#17 12 May 2022 at 2.07pm | | 1 | |
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In reply to Post #16
That's what makes this game so interesting none of us have all the answers and no two experiences are ever the same.
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#16 12 May 2022 at 1.40pm | | 1 | |
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In reply to Post #15
Fair enough mate. By the sounds of it we have completely opposing ideas when it comes to liquid attraction. I really do believe hydros have bags of attraction,whereas you well know my thoughts on flavours. By the sounds of it both work pretty well so who really knows?!
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#15 12 May 2022 at 1.33pm | | 2 | |
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In reply to Post #12
My boilies have powdered hydrolysed ingredients, I think they increase or intensify the taste of a boilie and of course they help with nutritional availability to the fish, but attraction, I'm not convinced. Depending on the bait, I can easily add free aminos or sugars to a bait if I think its necessary, usually just for short/medium term attraction and I have a small number of flavours that provide the initial attraction/investigation.
Like you I add Spices to nearly every bait I make, I think carp like the taste of them.
I add liquid hydros to pellets and groundbait mainly to increase their weight to reduce spread in deep water and it has the benefit of getting the taste of my bait into the water but that is a side benefit if I'm honest.
If I've made a good bait one sign I see is that the fish prefer my boilies to anything else, be that pellets, particles or alternative hookbaits. I've made enough poor or average bait to see the signs, pva bags of pellet proving better than stringers/bags of boilies, when I do get it right the opposite is the case and matching hookbaits completely outfish alternatives..whether I have a good or bad bait I haven't found glugging the free bait makes any difference to my catches, as someone said earlier it just cloaks the natural attraction from the boilie.
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#14 12 May 2022 at 1.15pm | | | |
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In reply to Post #13
You can add them to anything. I’ve started putting them on cornflakes and they make a superb addition to speciality coffees.
For milks how about trying the BAF peanut hydro ?
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#13 12 May 2022 at 1.02pm | | | |
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Is it possible to add hydros to 100% milk protein baits , if so what ones would be suitable ?
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#12 12 May 2022 at 12.55pm | | | |
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In reply to Post #11
Absolutely they do mate. 100% . Dont ask me the science behind it as I've no clue or interest in that as you know, but what I do know is my baits are so so much better with a good dose of hydro in them than without. Tbh I don't really glug or soak my baits at all and rely on what I put in them and they really do work. A couple of good hydros mixed with a couple of good spices is deadly.
Can I ask why you are them to pellets and groundbait but not boilies? As pellets and groundbait have their own attraction aswell ? Probably moreso than boilies in a lot of cases
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#11 12 May 2022 at 12.32pm | | | |
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In reply to Post #8
Are you sure Hydro liquids, and that is a broad term I know, actually act as attractors, I am far from convinced on a boilie they add a thing extra, I do add them to pellets and groundbait but not boilies, they have there own attraction.
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#10 12 May 2022 at 11.36am | | | |
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In reply to Post #9
I cover my hook link and lead in Hydro liquid if I’m using mesh bags as it gets a lot of attraction in water columns if I’m using a pva bag I coat the bag in it it also slows down the melting of bag if I’m in deeper water
It gives me confidence this way maybe increase my chances of a bite
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#9 12 May 2022 at 11.06am | | | |
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In reply to Post #7
Hydros on the inside and hydros soaked onto the surface. Best of both worlds.
Bear in mind that the cooking process affects some of the goodness of the hydrolysates so having them both inside and soaking a bait is good.
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#8 12 May 2022 at 10.49am | | | |
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In reply to Post #7
What you are doing is adding attraction. It's nothing to do with flavour at that point. And lots of baits don't actually have flavours as such. It's irrelevant what the bait tastes like to them if they don't eat it in the first place...
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So I pick a boilie that boasts hydro content and a flavour profile that’s taken months if not longer to create….then I smother it in a fish hydro for example. Flavour profile obliterated surely?
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#6 11 May 2022 at 8.31pm | | 1 | |
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In reply to Post #4
I agree - I'm currently reducing the eggs in my mix and making up the extra liquid with hydroslates and extracts. Softer baits but great for shorter sessions.
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I use hydrolysed products a lot, but I am curious why people use them, are you looking to add attraction, taste or nutrition to your mix, also I do wonder what liquid hydros bring to a mix that powders don't other than a lot of preservatives. Glugging yes I can understand but within a mix, not so sure.
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In reply to Post #1
Its money for one of the most efficient ways to boost virtually any baits effectiveness.
hydros are the absolutely king of the wet ingredients ( and the powdered ones are also awesome ) I'd never make a bait without a heavy hydro content, mixed with fresh eggs on a decent base mix you really arent going to ever go wrong. you'd have to do a significant amount to ruin the bait, like not cast it out lol
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In reply to Post #1
Definitely worth using in liquid and powdered form.
You could try injecting the liquid into solid bags. Also give some freebies a light dousing in the liquid hydro and then coat with powdered. Or air dry freebies and then rehydrate with a thinned down hydro. You could try making a stick mix up with say a fish hydro, a bit of lt94, maybe some crumb or a bird food, make it up really sloppy the day before and let the liquids really soak in.
Just a few ideas.
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In reply to Post #1
I glug my pva bags in hydro liquid before I put a bag out as it gives me confidence there’s attraction there to pull them to it especially when I’m fishing stretches of canal that are miles from locks,I also keep any pop bottles and if I bait an area up on a canal that doesn’t see many people then I put holes in the top and fill it with hydro liquids i then either weigh it down with string and a heavy lead to keep it in place or drop a stone inside to keep it up side down so all the liquids drip out onto the bottom,also I try and make sure it’s dropped into a hole in the weed so I can lift it out after and it also doesn’t get blown away.
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Are these hydros I’m seeing all the time really all that and how would one go about using them? Or is it money for old rope?
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