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   Crete lakes theft
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Silverslayer is not surfing CarpForum at the moment
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   Old Thread  #37 6 Oct 2020 at 6.46pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #34
Tell you what, f**k it, let's start a crowd fund for the poor chap concerned. I'll throw in the first £20. If a 100 of us did it, that's £2k that will get him fishing again, and perhaps restore the poor buggers faith in human nature . If every French venue did it....well do the maths!

That's my suggestion?
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   Old Thread  #36 6 Oct 2020 at 6.41pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #33
Good reply and of course who knows what the real situation is except that the poor guy/s had their tackle stolen. I too studied law (company law) but so many years ago that none of it probably applies now and most of it I have forgotten. Anyway enough of this except I am intrigued about the Crete Lakes Ltd accounts, time to get my forensic accountants hat back on, or maybe not!
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   Old Thread  #35 6 Oct 2020 at 6.25pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #33
And I am not suggesting that the fishery operating at the premises known as crete lakes in France is not a registered French company. Read my posts carefully.
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   Old Thread  #34 6 Oct 2020 at 6.24pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #30
Certainly is a sorry story, the 2nd well known French venue attracting the wrong headlines in a few weeks, have standards dropped out there?
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   Old Thread  #33 6 Oct 2020 at 6.23pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #31
David.. I do have a law degree! (albeit in construction law)

And I have heavily qualified what I have said, IF (AND ITS A BLOODY BIG IF) the contract was formed in the UK between the angler and Crete Lakes limited then its covered by English Law. Of that I am absolutely certain.

Now if Crete lakes Ltd has not traded then its possible that's not the contractual arrangement.

My example below (and its an example) is entirely legal way of doing business in two separate jurisdictions. Doesn't matter if it 2, 22 or 222! Nothing wrong with it, and it's exactly how travel agents operate. Indeed numerous multi national companies operate on such a manner.

But if a holiday booked abroad with a UK travel company goes wrong and there is a claim, it's under the jurisdiction of the English civil courts, regardless as to whether the travel agent operates in 1other country (for example France) or worldwide.
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   Old Thread  #32 6 Oct 2020 at 6.15pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #30
Agreed.

My suggestion is simply thinking of the angler concerned. I have nothing against Crete lakes and see them as much as a victim here as the anglers. But...

Like a lot of those things everyone looks for "blame" .

It's not always about "blame" but sometimes risk allocation and duty of care.

The chap who's gear was stolen has a photo of a hole on the fence where he says the theives gained access (see his Facebook account) (always two sides to a story no idea who is correct. Ladder of hole in fence?).

So unfortunately if he is correct, and it's a big "if" , poor old Crete lakes Ltd (if that's who he is in contact with) may be in breach of their contractual promise to provide a "secure site". And therfore be liable for his loss. Leaving a bloody great hole in a fence ain't secure, even if they did not know it was there!

Nobody wins here just the theives.

I'm just thinking of the little guy. The angler!



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   Old Thread  #31 6 Oct 2020 at 6.09pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #29
I would suggest that there is no contract with Crete Lakes Ltd in the UK, please read my previous comment i.e. the company does not appear to have been actively trading since March 2016 and I do know a few things about accounts, I qualified as an accountant in 1971 and I also know a little about operating a business in France, I did that for 11 years! Do not wish to enter the debate about which country a fishery operating in France should be registered in, except to say it is France!!!!! I note that some fisheries state that any dispute will be settled under UK law, I am not a lawyer so can´t really comment whether that is valid, my gut feeling is that it is irrelevant if the business is registered for tax purposes and trading in France. Your comment about Thomas Cook and BA also seems irrelevant, sorry, trading multi laturally in different countries is not the same as a business actively and solely being carried out in 1 country i.e. a carp fishery in France. Sure this conversation will continue and why not!
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   Old Thread  #30 6 Oct 2020 at 6.06pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
Hi Wayne

Jamie has a pretty good reputation on the continent so I checked the Crete lakes facebook page.
It appears the police have actually been informed
It also appears they got in and out by use of a ladder not a broken fence so how much gear they could actually hump over a fence???
Either way it's another sad story involving theiving scum. I hope he does fish again and gets through this
Best

Jon

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   Old Thread  #29 6 Oct 2020 at 5.05pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #27
Even more evidence its a UK company. Its registered address is in the UK. (New Eltham, London) Its UK serial number is 09511582.

A claim for breach of contract or break of duty of care is an entirely separate matter from the criminal act.

As I said I feel sorry for both of them. But in reality Crete Lakes Ltd (and if that's who the angler is in contract with) ought to be insured for this sort of thing.

John maybe correct as to why they were reluctant to call the police, but I suspect that there is a French company that controls the fishing, so from a contractual perspective it probably works like this... (PROBABLY)

Angler A books a holiday in UK with Crete Lakes Ltd (B) . His contract is with a UK company.

Crete Lakes Ltd has a separate contract with the french company, (C) whom it pays, to provide fishing to its clients from the UK.

A has a contract with B

B has a contract with C

Importantly A has no contract with C.

A's contract with B is under English law.

B's Contract with C is likely to be under French Law.

The crime is a criminal mater in France.

So arguably A has a claim under its UK contract.

Indeed possible that B has a claim against the French company C for failing to fulfil the obligations of its contract.

The contractual arguments are entirely separate from the criminal event.
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   Old Thread  #28 6 Oct 2020 at 4.56pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #26
The accounts (for what they are worth) make uninteresting reading, no changes at all in the balance sheet for the last 4 years which suggests that there has not been any trading activity since March 2016 and it looks like the company made a trading loss of £66,291 in its first year of trading which was covered by a directors loan. Also not sure why a company would keep the same bank balance of £246,796 for 4 years, very, very strange?
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   Old Thread  #27 6 Oct 2020 at 4.54pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
I don’t know if this helps but taken from the booking terms and conditions. Write to cretelakes at the address in Sidcup. Feel pretty sure that with the negative publicity they would want to put this right.

‘Complaints procedure: If you consider that you have cause to make a complaint to Cretelakes while in France, then the complaint should be made to the head Bailiff immediately. In most cases complaints are dealt with and resolved if this procedure is followed. All complaints should be in person while in France to the head bailiff, or in Writing to Cretelakes 16 Oaklands Avenue, Sidcup, Kent, DA15 8NB.‘
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   Old Thread  #26 6 Oct 2020 at 4.16pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #24
Sorry you are wrong. See below.
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   Old Thread  #25 6 Oct 2020 at 4.15pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #23
John

We are at cross purposes. The crime was in France, but the contract was formed in the UK. Crete lakes limited is definitely a UK company do a check yourself if you want. Jamie Hay is the director and it's filed both accounts and confirmation statements since 2015. When it was formed. It even has an asset value in UK. All available at companies House.

So any Contracual argument concerning Crete Lakes Contracual liability is under UK law. That's separate from the crime.

Sorry John your wrong.

No different if you have a bad holiday experience with a UK travel agent. The breach of contract is dealt with under UK law.

It's not about the crime it's about where the contract was formed and between whom.

Now as I originally said, Crete Lakes could be liable without being at fault completely. In the same way as I am liable for events that occur on my property in UK.

Sorry John, but I know you are wrong. The criminal act occurred in France and is covered by French law. Any claim that the holiday maker has against the company providing the service is entirely separate issue from the crime, such as duty of care etc, ie a separate contractual argument, will be under English civil law if both entities in the contract are English and the contract was formed in England.

I feel sorry for both of them, but the chap who suffered the theft has a very good argument against Crete Lakes Ltd (if that who he was in contract with).

They (Crete Lakes Ltd) should be insured for this sort of thing, especially as they appear to be trading with consumers in the UK.

He may not win. But he has an argument.

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   Old Thread  #24 6 Oct 2020 at 4.12pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #23
Absolutely spot on John, it's French jurisdiction, therefore French law applies. There may well be 2 entities but it's only the French entity that is of concern.

The whole things sad, regardless of what law is applicable!
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   Old Thread  #23 6 Oct 2020 at 3.57pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #22
The crime was committed in France therefore will come under French law.
As far as I know Creat Lake are a registered French business.
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