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   Old Thread  #77 8 Oct 2020 at 8.04pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #76
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   Old Thread  #76 8 Oct 2020 at 7.53pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #75
👍
Thanks
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   Old Thread  #75 8 Oct 2020 at 7.48pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #74
That was a quick trip to the naughty step...welcome back!
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   Old Thread  #74 8 Oct 2020 at 7.41pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
I must admit reading through all the posts something just isnít kosher 🤔

A lot of us when fishing the U.K. on certain venues hardly sleep due to 3am visitors after your gear .
One of the reasons I liked fishing in France so much a few years ago 8 weeks a year .

I hope those that have been turned over have some better luck and a satisfactory outcome but I canít see a happy outcome .
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   Old Thread  #73 8 Oct 2020 at 1.41pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #69
french thieves? wouldnt be so sure about that! Who knows lake, paths, cctv etc better than people already fishing there? if they really blocked the guy and ignore him than that is very very bad/sad...
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   Old Thread  #72 8 Oct 2020 at 1.33pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #71
Followed this a little bit and the anglers concerned still havent been contacted by Crete Lakes, at least not by yesterday , in fact i've seen posts that state they have been blocked by Crete on their social media sites. That doesn't sound right to me.
The angler who's gear was taken has said they showed the bailiff the holes in the fence where they entered and in fact followed tracks back through the fence to where they think the gear was loaded up into a vehicle. Again something not right.. And why were the police not informed immediately , if indeed they have been informed at all???

Like i said theres something about this that doesn't add up at all ..
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   Old Thread  #71 8 Oct 2020 at 1.27pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
After investigating we are fully aware of how the thieves got in which was with a ladder. As many of you will know we have CCTV dotted around the venue but it was unfortunate that it was not in the said area,
Something just doesnít add up here....

Now Crete lakes say after there investigation they are fully aware the thieves used a ladder, but in the next sentence explain how the said area was unfortunate not to have cctv....

So how do they definitely know they used a ladder if no cctv was in this area...

Who done the investigation ??? The balifffs ( do these get police background checks upon applying for this role. etc?).. not ideal if it was an inside job..
Why did they not call police immediately ?

Something doesnít feel right about this,,THE ANGLER WHOS GEAR WAS STOLEN...STATED ONLY THE BAILIFFS CAME IN HIS SWIM ALL WEEK AND HIS GEAR WASNT VISIBLE FROM BEHIND THE FENCE??AND THE THIEVES KNEW EXACTLY WHAT THEY WAS AFTER !!!!

Coincidence they target an area with no cctv?? How wouid they know this without scoping out the venue??surely thereís cctv footage on the complex if this is the case with said thieves scoping the place..

Coincidence the thieves knew to strike at mealtime when the anglers go for there evening meal..

If there was an hole in the fence why the **** wouid they use a ladder???

Really feel for the anglers involved, I very much doubt they will see insurance payout if you leave your gear unattended..

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   Old Thread  #70 8 Oct 2020 at 1.25pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #68
Your not missing anything. Nail on head.

Ladder access - Crete lakes certainly not liable. Taken all reasonable steps

Hole in fence access-Crete Lakes very possibly liable.Site not secure as advertised and anglers not warned.

Phone police= Official report generated including how access obtained by the thieves.

Draw your own conclusions from the evidence and contrasting versions of events!

I'm going to leave this here. Said my bit.
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   Old Thread  #69 8 Oct 2020 at 12.39pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
No idea where crete lakes is, but when I was at Abbey in August dave said there had been a lot of tackle thefts in the area, and although they themselves hadn't had any they were warning everyone, and also making us wear wrist bands and have car stickers in just incase. So maybe the French thieves have realised there's a lot of money to be made robbing us English on holiday over there
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   Old Thread  #68 8 Oct 2020 at 12.05pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
You have to feel sorry for the lads who had there gear stolen
and also the people who have turned into Poirot to help the rest of us understand how these things work ..English / French law etc etc
but somethings just doesn't sound right or was just handled wrong at the time ?
why would you not call the police immediately as a serious crime has been commited on your property ?
surely the 1st thing you do is phone the police ?
and am i missing something with the ladder how do they know they used a ladder ? ...if you know they used a ladder you must have footage ? ..something to show the police
would be alot easier to go through a hole in the fence ...but then again having an unrepaired fence means you are liable ? ...this could be a game changer for alot of fisheries in france about leaving your gear to go and have your meals etc etc
Any way i hope the anglers involved get some kind of compensation and it would be nice for Crete Lakes to provide it as going by some of the posts on how much they take a year and are legal ..im sure the owner really doesn't want this bad publicity
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   Old Thread  #67 8 Oct 2020 at 9.18am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #60
Just to clarify... I am not "blaming" (that word again!) Crete Lakes. I am pointing out that they could well have some liability in English Law If the contract was made in England.

Read my posts. I am making a distinction between legal liability and "blame". Its all to do with risk allocation and the contractual promise.

There are a number of situations in English law where a party can be liable without necessarily being to "blame" particularly so if that party is a commercial organisation provide service to the public.

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   Old Thread  #66 8 Oct 2020 at 8.48am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #64
Agree.

Also the Crete Lakes Website gives a UK trading address.

The contract will be between the angler and who they paid. If they paid in sterling there is a good chance its the UK company.

If there is another "contract" between the UK company and a French one that has nothing to do with the angler.

A good example is Premier Inns. They are owned by Whitbread the brewery. But each hotel is its own separate company. The pinter books with Premier Inn (main company) not the individual site company. A lot of the individual site companies of Premier Inn are offshore.
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   Old Thread  #65 8 Oct 2020 at 8.43am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #59
David,

There is a UK company called Dream Lakes Ltd registered in Colchester.

Not saying it has anything to do with the French company, but it could have.🤔


You see my point I hope! 🤔

If it's legal its legal!
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   Old Thread  #64 8 Oct 2020 at 8.42am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #62
Sorry if I have gone off topic on this, agreed there are all sorts of ways the organisation(s) could be structured, the only assets that Crete Lakes Limited own are a vehicle and fixtures and fittings (less than 4k) so they do not own the fishery, fish stocks, land or buildings. It would be interesting to hear from somebody that has booked with Crete Lakes to determine who they have been invoiced by. My point here is that the people who have had their tackle stolen need to be sure who they made a contract with when they booked their holiday?
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   Old Thread  #63 8 Oct 2020 at 8.18am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #62
Does make me wonder what will happen after 31st December though on such arrangements!!!!!
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   Old Thread  #62 8 Oct 2020 at 8.17am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #59
David,

See my earlier post regarding how it might be structured,(Might) whereby the UK company effectively subcontracts the fishing to a fully registered fishery in France.

Both have common directors etc etc.

As an accountant you will spot that this potentially allows them to split their income in 2 separate tax regimes and pay their directors 2 salaries with the appropriate tax relief in each jurisdiction.

I am not saying that is how crete lakes does it, but it could explain the UK company. I looked at a fishery in France that was structured like this. Is NOT illegal and as the fishery side is a registered business in France complies with the law. French corporate tax is much higher than UK"s. Indeed many anglers think that fisheries in France are coining it in when they overlook the significant tax liability (much higher than UK).

Obviously off topic, but thought I would clarify. Doesn't explain the stagnent accounts of Crete Lakes Ltd. Perhaps they simply own the site?
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   Old Thread  #61 8 Oct 2020 at 7.58am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #60
Regarding the situation with moorlands and this being the same - both have handled it in a way that has cost them far more than if they had supported the anglers
I canít speak for moorlands because I have never been - and now never would
Crete lakes gets 40 anglers every week - thatís £25000 plus a week
What would it have cost to replace the stolen tackle and put better measures in place compared to how many anglers will either not now go or think seriously about it
How would this message stream have looked if they had replaced all of the tackle and put better measures in place - Crete lakes place to go - they look after you there
Also I would assume Crete will take on more bailiffs - what will that cost

Whether it is down to the angler to insure himself or not - the total cost will be far greater
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   Old Thread  #60 7 Oct 2020 at 9.10pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #58
Surly they are reacting to the theft by saying they are staggering meal times so people are always about and will deliver if people donít want to leave their swims. Hardly an admission of wrongdoing

See another post by the angler who had his gear stolen saying heís been there a few times before? But his original post saying the website said itís a Ďsecureí venue and this is why he booked this venue and he wouldnít of if heíd known it wasnít secure came across to me as if it was his first visit to the venue? Seems a strange thing to say as surely if this venue was so unsecure he wouldnít of returned multiple times 🤷🏻‍♂️

Horrible thing for any angler to have happen to them and no doubt they are looking for someone to blame, as would any of us if this happened to us, but no one can expect the venue to always replace any stolen tackle, otherwise Iím sure there would be plenty of unscrupulous anglers happy enough to pass their gear over a fence to a mate then rock up to the bailiff and say ďlooks like someone got in with a ladder and had my gear away, where do I get my new stuffĒ

Cretelakes should of definitely phoned the police straight away and kept in touch with the anglers who had their gear stolen. Itís the least they could of done to try and save some face with the way this has planned out. I just donít think that all the blame can be put on the lake and is not the same as the Moorlands situation
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   Old Thread  #59 7 Oct 2020 at 9.03pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #58
I an surprised that nobody has picked up on my points about who the customers have a contract with, certainly doesnīt appear to be with Crete Lakes Ltd? As Johnhere has said and he is 100% totally correct if you operate a fishery in France you need to be registered in France and need to have a Siret number, trust me some of us thought we were doing it right and it cost us thousands of euros to find out that we werenīt! It is not my intention to get too involved in this matter, nor does it affect me at all as to what other people choose to do to trade in France, but there needs to be some clarity for the customers. Angling Lines and similar booking agents are as far as I know registered in the UK, they are a booking agent and not operating a fishery in France, Dream Lakes (for example) are registered in France, not sure about their advertising company which I assume is UK registered, but Crete Lakes is a bit of a mystery?

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   Old Thread  #58 7 Oct 2020 at 7.51pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #57
Having fished here a couple of times - Crete lakes are offering an all inclusive deal where by they give you a breakfast and evening meal served at their clubhouse
They have never said whilst I was there -
Do not leave your pegs - we will bring the food to you
there is a risk of having your gear stolen whilst at the clubhouse

Now they are saying both of these
Surely that means they realise they are in the wrong and trying to rectify it

This is the second french issue in a couple of weeks (moorlands) and both have been handled badly by the owners

How much would it have cost to refund the anglers at moorlands or replace the stolen fishing gear
No where near what itís cost in lost revenue and damage to their reputation

Imagine if they had said let us know what you have had stolen and we will replace it straight away - oh and thereís a free week when it suits you to make up for the broken week and inconvenience

I know which would make me want to return and which would make me look elsewhere
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   Old Thread  #57 7 Oct 2020 at 12.40pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #56
Didn't disagree with you at all....you were coming at it from the legal aspect, I was speaking from the Insurance angle...same result in the end..
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   Old Thread  #56 7 Oct 2020 at 12.34pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #55
We agree then! 😂🤔
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   Old Thread  #55 7 Oct 2020 at 12.33pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #54
Definitely worth pursuing, 100%.

Not being expert on French Insurance policies the subject of Crete Lakes having cover or not is open for debate....if they were in the UK and under a UK written policy they would likely have cover for breaches of Contractual Liability.....so that is the angle, as you say, that I would be going for...
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   Old Thread  #54 7 Oct 2020 at 12.17pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #52
I agree with you 100%.

The insurance won't pay, so the poor lads only recourse is via crete lakes under civil action. I've never suggested insurance would step in. But your example of the insurance companies likely action with the maid leaving the door open is correct, but where there is no insurance cover then there is nothing stopping the victim of the theft in my hotel maid example taking action either agast the hotel direct, or the travel agency he booked the holiday through.

That's been my argument from the start. The angler does have photos of the hole in the fence. So the courts would have to look at the evidence and decide. I have no idea as to what evidence Crete Lakes has for the ladder versionof events?


If the courts side with the hole in the fence version then there is an extremely good chance of Crete Lakes being found liable. Its certainly worth the court fee.

Also crete lakes are likely to be insured for this sort of thing, and I suspect if they are the insurance company (of crete lakes) will settle out of court with the angler.

All this assumes that the contract was made in England and is covered by English law, again the evidence suggests it may well be. (Crete Lakes Ltd being an English registered company with a UK address)

As I started my initial observation (read my post) I know what I would do in the circumstances!!!

I'm just looking at it from the anglers perspective. Ask yourself if it was you who suffered the theft would you take your chances in the small claims courts? Only risk is you lose. Can't be liable for costs under a small claims action. I know I would!

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   Old Thread  #53 7 Oct 2020 at 12.07pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
Or the security is good enough and it was a inside job 🤔🤔
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   Old Thread  #52 7 Oct 2020 at 11.58am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #48
On your first point. If the Maid left the door open your Insurers would still pay as you took "all reasonable steps" to secure your valuables when you left the room. The Insurers may in turn choose to seek a recovery from the Hotel by holding them negligent.

The problem with the lad at Crete Lakes is that his Insurers will not pay out in the first place, (or they are highly unlikely to) as they will argue that he did not take "reasonable care" of his property by leaving it and going for dinner, hole in the fence or ladder makes no difference whatsoever.

I'm afraid the only chance of Crete Lakes being made to pay here is via a civil action and if that's the case, Crete Lakes will probably deny the hole and say it was via a ladder.

I agree they are obliged to provide a reasonably secure site, (as advertised) however as an individual you are also required to take reasonable care to protect your property, you cannot rely on a third party to a) protect your property for you or b) compensate you if the items are stolen or damaged......this is the very reason we take out Insurance policies.....
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   Old Thread  #51 7 Oct 2020 at 11.53am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #50
Well, it's about reasonableness and liability.

If the "scumbags" gained access via a ladder, then it's fair to say that Crete Lakes did all what could be reasonably required of them, and importantly complied with their contractual obligations to provide a (reasonably) secure site. Their own website describes the site as being fenced/secure.




However if the "scumbags" simply walked or climbed through a hole in the fencing, Crete Lakes did not comply with their obligations to reasonably secure the site, nor their contractual promise. A fence with a big hole on it is as useful as Jo fence at all. This is the case even if Crete lakes were NOT aware of the hole (liability without blame example-same as if storm damage blows down a big tree in my garden damaging a neighbours property, I am not a t fault but I hold the liability and risk).

Obviously if Crete lakes were aware of the hole thatales matters worse (duty to warn, etc etc).

I genuinely feel for both parties, but if the contract is under English law (if) and if the thieves gained access via a hole in the fence (if) then crete lakes are liable. It may not be "fair" but that's the law! They are not responsible for the "scumbags" they are responsible because the scumbags were able to gain access via an unsecured site and the contractual promise made by Crete Lakes was that their site was secure.

As I said it turns on the facts (as most of these types of issue do). But looking at the available evidence I would side with the anglers version of events. But that's just my opinion. It may also explain why the angler claims Crete Lakes did not call the police. A cynical man could conclude (careful use of the word could!) that they did not want a police record of the access being via a hole in the fence (if indeed that is what occurred).

It's all to do with reasonableness. Crete lakes can't be expected to have security guards and helicopter gun ships patrol the site, but they can be expected to ensure that the fence is maintained and adequate, if that's what they promise.




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   Old Thread  #50 7 Oct 2020 at 11.37am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
To sum things up then Crete lakes are not secure either with a hole in the fence or as they say the scumbags gained access over the fence.

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   Old Thread  #49 7 Oct 2020 at 11.25am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #45
And just another observation...

I doubt the angler concerned would have chosen yo leave his gear unattended and go to dinner if he was made aware of the whole in the fence and therefore that the sites security was compromised (assuming the hole on fence version is correct).

By the same way you would not go to dinner in your all inclusive hotel if the door lock on your room did not work!

The point being the angler was not made aware of the (alleged) breach in the sites security, but should have been.





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   Old Thread  #48 7 Oct 2020 at 10.37am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #45
Your example is a good one.

Under ordinary circumstances you are correct that under an all inclusive holiday you would not be able to claim if your "room was broken into" while you were munching on your buffet dinner... However:

If while you were down at your all inclusive breakfast the maid cleaned your room and left the door wide open when finishined, thus allowing the thieves in, I think we could agree that there would be a good argument that the hotel was in breach of its duty of care in such circumstances (can we?). Its not reasonable for the maid (a hotel. employee) to simply leave the door wide open and unlocked.

Now let's look at the events at Crete Lakes. There are 2 very separate versions of events. I have no idea as to which is correct (albeit the available evidence supports one not the other).

Crete Lakes say that the theives got in via a ladder over the fence. If correct then I would say that they are not liable. In the same way as a hotel would not be liable for theft if a theif breaks into a locked hotel room while you are at dinner (see above).

The angler however says that the theives gained access via a bloody great hole in the fencing. On his Facebook page he has provided clear photos of the hole in the fence. Accordingly even if Crete lakes did not know about the hole in the fence, they are in breach of their implied obligation to provide a reasonably secure site (as advertised) in the same way as a hotel would be if the maid left the door open.

It's very nuanced and turns on the facts. But I know who I believe lookinf at both accounts of the eve ts, and importantly the evidence (photos).



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   Old Thread  #47 7 Oct 2020 at 10.00am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #46
Really sorry to hear that mate, utter scumbags...
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   Old Thread  #46 7 Oct 2020 at 9.57am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #42
Hi Matt

No, Czech republic down near the Austrian border

Best

Jon
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   Old Thread  #45 7 Oct 2020 at 9.06am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #44
And there lies the problem, if you choose to leave your gear unattended anywhere you are taking a risk and why should the Insurance Companies pick up the tab in those circumstances?

Almost all policies will carry a "reasonable care" clause whereby you must take reasonable care of your belongings to prevent loss or damage.......so it is down to the insurers interpretation of the events, was it "reasonable" for the lads to leave thousands of pounds worth of belongings unattended whilst they went for an evening meal....?

I think we all know what the answer will be there......

Unfortunately whilst Crete Lakes owe a "duty of care" to their visitors and it could be reasonably expected that your gear would be secure it is no different to going on an all-inclusive package holiday to Spain. You wouldn't claim from the Hotelier if your room was broken into whilst you were chowing down at the buffet...you would claim from your insurers and providing you had taken "reasonable care" by using the safe in your room or locking your room door then you would be paid out.
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   Old Thread  #44 7 Oct 2020 at 8.47am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #43
make sure you gear is insured? what insurance company will pay out if you left your gear somewhere alone...
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   Old Thread  #43 7 Oct 2020 at 8.39am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #30
Posted by Jamie on their website.
There was an incident here at Cretelakes last Thursday, whilst at evening meal 2 anglers had some tackle stolen, there is a lot of stories going around on the internet to how this happened. After investigating we are fully aware of how the thieves got in which was with a ladder. As many of you will know we have CCTV dotted around the venue but it was unfortunate that it was not in the said area, We have informed the police and told the anglers in question that we will confirm they were at Cretelakes and we will write supporting letters to their insurance companies so they can make a claim.
Any anglers that are coming out in the next few weeks will have separate mealtimes to ensure that anglers will always be on the lakes, or they can have their food delivered to the pegs.
We are hearing through other people that this has happened at several lakes in France so if you are travelling to a lake in France soon be vigilant and make sure your gear is insured.
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   Old Thread  #42 7 Oct 2020 at 7.10am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #38
Must have been an awful experience for you mate, was that in France as well.....?
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   Old Thread  #41 6 Oct 2020 at 6.58pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #39
Nope. Looking to get into it. But not yet. And I don't know the chap either
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   Old Thread  #40 6 Oct 2020 at 6.52pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #38
No I agree, worse things happened at another venue recently, Crete Lakes has in my opinion always had a good reputation.
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   Old Thread  #39 6 Oct 2020 at 6.51pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #37
Good idea Paul, so your post rightly or wrongly suggests you are a fishery owner/operator?
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   Old Thread  #38 6 Oct 2020 at 6.49pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #34
Hi David

I don't things have changed, just circumstances.
When I was robbed (And it was a venue I was advised not to fish alone)
Two large chaps stood in front of me whilst a little **** packed up my rods, alarms, pod, rod bag, net, full fox box and a chair and loaded them into a car a woman turned up in then they all drove off. Whole thing took 30 minutes.
When the police turned up they were very nonchalant about the whole thing which pissed me off.
When I got home I contacted a police friend and he explained most victims tend to over exaggerate their experience and look to blame, which in hindsight I probably did and possibly what Wayne's facebook mate is doing.
Having had my experience I'm just questioning whether it's time for the forum to go on a Crete lakes slagging scenario considering their reputation and what's happened

Best

Jon
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   Old Thread  #37 6 Oct 2020 at 6.46pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #34
Tell you what, f**k it, let's start a crowd fund for the poor chap concerned. I'll throw in the first £20. If a 100 of us did it, that's £2k that will get him fishing again, and perhaps restore the poor buggers faith in human nature . If every French venue did it....well do the maths!

That's my suggestion?
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   Old Thread  #36 6 Oct 2020 at 6.41pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #33
Good reply and of course who knows what the real situation is except that the poor guy/s had their tackle stolen. I too studied law (company law) but so many years ago that none of it probably applies now and most of it I have forgotten. Anyway enough of this except I am intrigued about the Crete Lakes Ltd accounts, time to get my forensic accountants hat back on, or maybe not!
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   Old Thread  #35 6 Oct 2020 at 6.25pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #33
And I am not suggesting that the fishery operating at the premises known as crete lakes in France is not a registered French company. Read my posts carefully.
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   Old Thread  #34 6 Oct 2020 at 6.24pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #30
Certainly is a sorry story, the 2nd well known French venue attracting the wrong headlines in a few weeks, have standards dropped out there?
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   Old Thread  #33 6 Oct 2020 at 6.23pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #31
David.. I do have a law degree! (albeit in construction law)

And I have heavily qualified what I have said, IF (AND ITS A BLOODY BIG IF) the contract was formed in the UK between the angler and Crete Lakes limited then its covered by English Law. Of that I am absolutely certain.

Now if Crete lakes Ltd has not traded then its possible that's not the contractual arrangement.

My example below (and its an example) is entirely legal way of doing business in two separate jurisdictions. Doesn't matter if it 2, 22 or 222! Nothing wrong with it, and it's exactly how travel agents operate. Indeed numerous multi national companies operate on such a manner.

But if a holiday booked abroad with a UK travel company goes wrong and there is a claim, it's under the jurisdiction of the English civil courts, regardless as to whether the travel agent operates in 1other country (for example France) or worldwide.
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   Old Thread  #32 6 Oct 2020 at 6.15pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #30
Agreed.

My suggestion is simply thinking of the angler concerned. I have nothing against Crete lakes and see them as much as a victim here as the anglers. But...

Like a lot of those things everyone looks for "blame" .

It's not always about "blame" but sometimes risk allocation and duty of care.

The chap who's gear was stolen has a photo of a hole on the fence where he says the theives gained access (see his Facebook account) (always two sides to a story no idea who is correct. Ladder of hole in fence?).

So unfortunately if he is correct, and it's a big "if" , poor old Crete lakes Ltd (if that's who he is in contact with) may be in breach of their contractual promise to provide a "secure site". And therfore be liable for his loss. Leaving a bloody great hole in a fence ain't secure, even if they did not know it was there!

Nobody wins here just the theives.

I'm just thinking of the little guy. The angler!



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   Old Thread  #31 6 Oct 2020 at 6.09pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #29
I would suggest that there is no contract with Crete Lakes Ltd in the UK, please read my previous comment i.e. the company does not appear to have been actively trading since March 2016 and I do know a few things about accounts, I qualified as an accountant in 1971 and I also know a little about operating a business in France, I did that for 11 years! Do not wish to enter the debate about which country a fishery operating in France should be registered in, except to say it is France!!!!! I note that some fisheries state that any dispute will be settled under UK law, I am not a lawyer so canīt really comment whether that is valid, my gut feeling is that it is irrelevant if the business is registered for tax purposes and trading in France. Your comment about Thomas Cook and BA also seems irrelevant, sorry, trading multi laturally in different countries is not the same as a business actively and solely being carried out in 1 country i.e. a carp fishery in France. Sure this conversation will continue and why not!
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   Old Thread  #30 6 Oct 2020 at 6.06pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
Hi Wayne

Jamie has a pretty good reputation on the continent so I checked the Crete lakes facebook page.
It appears the police have actually been informed
It also appears they got in and out by use of a ladder not a broken fence so how much gear they could actually hump over a fence???
Either way it's another sad story involving theiving scum. I hope he does fish again and gets through this
Best

Jon

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   Old Thread  #29 6 Oct 2020 at 5.05pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #27
Even more evidence its a UK company. Its registered address is in the UK. (New Eltham, London) Its UK serial number is 09511582.

A claim for breach of contract or break of duty of care is an entirely separate matter from the criminal act.

As I said I feel sorry for both of them. But in reality Crete Lakes Ltd (and if that's who the angler is in contract with) ought to be insured for this sort of thing.

John maybe correct as to why they were reluctant to call the police, but I suspect that there is a French company that controls the fishing, so from a contractual perspective it probably works like this... (PROBABLY)

Angler A books a holiday in UK with Crete Lakes Ltd (B) . His contract is with a UK company.

Crete Lakes Ltd has a separate contract with the french company, (C) whom it pays, to provide fishing to its clients from the UK.

A has a contract with B

B has a contract with C

Importantly A has no contract with C.

A's contract with B is under English law.

B's Contract with C is likely to be under French Law.

The crime is a criminal mater in France.

So arguably A has a claim under its UK contract.

Indeed possible that B has a claim against the French company C for failing to fulfil the obligations of its contract.

The contractual arguments are entirely separate from the criminal event.
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   Old Thread  #28 6 Oct 2020 at 4.56pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #26
The accounts (for what they are worth) make uninteresting reading, no changes at all in the balance sheet for the last 4 years which suggests that there has not been any trading activity since March 2016 and it looks like the company made a trading loss of £66,291 in its first year of trading which was covered by a directors loan. Also not sure why a company would keep the same bank balance of £246,796 for 4 years, very, very strange?
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   Old Thread  #27 6 Oct 2020 at 4.54pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
I donít know if this helps but taken from the booking terms and conditions. Write to cretelakes at the address in Sidcup. Feel pretty sure that with the negative publicity they would want to put this right.

ĎComplaints procedure: If you consider that you have cause to make a complaint to Cretelakes while in France, then the complaint should be made to the head Bailiff immediately. In most cases complaints are dealt with and resolved if this procedure is followed. All complaints should be in person while in France to the head bailiff, or in Writing to Cretelakes 16 Oaklands Avenue, Sidcup, Kent, DA15 8NB.Ď
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   Old Thread  #26 6 Oct 2020 at 4.16pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #24
Sorry you are wrong. See below.
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   Old Thread  #25 6 Oct 2020 at 4.15pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #23
John

We are at cross purposes. The crime was in France, but the contract was formed in the UK. Crete lakes limited is definitely a UK company do a check yourself if you want. Jamie Hay is the director and it's filed both accounts and confirmation statements since 2015. When it was formed. It even has an asset value in UK. All available at companies House.

So any Contracual argument concerning Crete Lakes Contracual liability is under UK law. That's separate from the crime.

Sorry John your wrong.

No different if you have a bad holiday experience with a UK travel agent. The breach of contract is dealt with under UK law.

It's not about the crime it's about where the contract was formed and between whom.

Now as I originally said, Crete Lakes could be liable without being at fault completely. In the same way as I am liable for events that occur on my property in UK.

Sorry John, but I know you are wrong. The criminal act occurred in France and is covered by French law. Any claim that the holiday maker has against the company providing the service is entirely separate issue from the crime, such as duty of care etc, ie a separate contractual argument, will be under English civil law if both entities in the contract are English and the contract was formed in England.

I feel sorry for both of them, but the chap who suffered the theft has a very good argument against Crete Lakes Ltd (if that who he was in contract with).

They (Crete Lakes Ltd) should be insured for this sort of thing, especially as they appear to be trading with consumers in the UK.

He may not win. But he has an argument.

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   Old Thread  #24 6 Oct 2020 at 4.12pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #23
Absolutely spot on John, it's French jurisdiction, therefore French law applies. There may well be 2 entities but it's only the French entity that is of concern.

The whole things sad, regardless of what law is applicable!
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   Old Thread  #23 6 Oct 2020 at 3.57pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #22
The crime was committed in France therefore will come under French law.
As far as I know Creat Lake are a registered French business.
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   Old Thread  #22 6 Oct 2020 at 3.50pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #21
John,

No doubt you are correct. But Crete Lakes limted I'd DEFINITELY a UK company. Its definitely registered at companies House and has been so since 2015. Its entire filing history, directors and accounts are available on line at companies House.

So it's possible (likely) that there are two businesses.

One that sells the holidays in the UK, and a second in France that provides the service to the UK company.

The point here is that the original contract MAY have been made in the UK between the holiday maker and the UK company, if it was, and its an If, it is without any doubt whatsoever covered by English Law.

As I said the transaction would need inspection. But Crete Lakes Ltd definitely, without a shadow of doubt, trades in the UK.
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   Old Thread  #21 6 Oct 2020 at 3.43pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #20
If you fish a venue in France that is not a French registered business then you are breaking the French law. Not only has the venue broken the law so have the angler(s). The French police can arrive and remove all your gear (used in court as evidence) as well as escorting you off the property.
You would then go to court, 1st offence with luck be given a fine and your gear returned to you.

The above has nothing to do with a business operating in the UK. I say again under French law ALL businesses operating in France must be registered in France.

So the above might be a reason for a venue not calling the police.

The answer:- NEVER book a venue in France until you have made sure it is registered in France.

If you break the law in any Country dont expect the UK law to help you out....they wont!

John
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   Old Thread  #20 6 Oct 2020 at 2.50pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #19
And Crete Lakes Ltd pay UK tax. Their filed accounts are available free at companies House. They have to they are registered in the UK. Required to file a UK company set of accounts and a financial statement, and make payment of any corporatation tax that arises.

Now its possible that there are two businesses, a French one and an English one. But if the chap who had is stuff stolen booked the trip in UK, paid in £ and paid Crete Lakes Ltd, its a contract made in England covered by English law.
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   Old Thread  #19 6 Oct 2020 at 2.41pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #16
Nope. They are a British company selling holidays in UK therfore the contract was made in the UK by two British entities. Their business activities in France has nothing to do where the contract was made.

A good example is Thomas Cook, or indeed BA. They operate abroad, but the holiday contract is made in UK.

Where they pay their taxes is irrelevant.

Sorry but your wrong.

The van break ins at linear are different. They don't ask you to go to dinner in a central point, leaving your tackle, as part of the contractual agreement, nor do they say that their site is secure.

In my mind there is no doubt, Crete Lakes is liable.

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   Old Thread  #18 6 Oct 2020 at 2.36pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #17
Completely different.....Linear are not providing a "package holiday" for a start.
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   Old Thread  #17 6 Oct 2020 at 2.20pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #15
How many people have had their vans broken into at linear and got nothing from them?
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   Old Thread  #16 6 Oct 2020 at 2.16pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #15
If Crete Lakes operate under a SIRET number and pay French tax, French law would apply, regardless of their registration at Companies House.

More than anything though, such a shame for all involved is me opinion.
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   Old Thread  #15 6 Oct 2020 at 1.04pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #14
"you pay your money and take your chance"


Sorry don't agree. Nor does English Law in my view


Crete Lakes are liable IMO. Even though not their fault.
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   Old Thread  #14 6 Oct 2020 at 12.58pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
Iím here at the moment, I have been for the past 6 years, Iím gutted for the lads that have had their gear stolen and I donít know I would feel if it was mine but in the past 6 years Iíve felt perfectly safe leaving my gear and going to breakfast and dinner nowhere is safe nowhere is secure you pay your money and take your chance, I personally will carry on going but thatís my choice.
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   Old Thread  #13 6 Oct 2020 at 11.37am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #12
Just checked. Crete Lakes Ltd is a UK limited company registered at companies House. Names of directors freely available.

Therefore the holiday this gentleman booked was therfore a contract made in England between an English person (the consumer) with an English company(Crete Lakes Ltd). Therfore its subject to English law. Covered by all English Statutes, including Consumer protection statutes.

English law applies to the "service" provided by the company to the consumer as the contract was formed in England between to English entities, even though the performance of the contract took place in France.

I know what I would do if it was me who had my gear stolen!
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   Old Thread  #12 6 Oct 2020 at 11.27am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #11
In my view... If they organise coach trips and actively encourage you to a central point for meals provided by them, then they have a liability here . Not necessarily a responsibility.


The lake can be liable without being responsible. Its about risk allocation.

In the circumstances I would say Crete lakes should carry insurance against this sort of thing in the same way Hotels do. Although I can't comment on French law.

If the site is advertised as secure and its not, that only supports the argument that Crete Lakes is liable.

Why they didn't call the police? The best possible explanation is that they did not want an official record of the incident. The worse explanation is that something far more suspicious has gone on.

Is Crete lakes a UK Ltd company? Was the contract for the holiday made in England? If so the angler should seek legal advice. Crete lakes must hold public liability insurance.
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   Old Thread  #11 6 Oct 2020 at 11.13am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #9
Yes it sounds like it hasnít been handled well. Agree that you canít be expected to pack everything away each meal time, especially as most of the people on a week there go on the organised coach trip so wouldnít have anywhere to put the stuff anyway. Just want to make it clear that Iím not trying to blame the angler for getting his gear nicked 👍🏻
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   Old Thread  #10 6 Oct 2020 at 10.42am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
That's terrible Wayne, gutted for them

I'm prepared to be shot down for this but on venues offering these sorts of meal services at say a hut/central building how hard would it be to have a walk around , or get someone else too while they eat their dinner?

I must admit it's always been a worry of mine and this post has me thinking again. Oddly enough over the last 4 years I've been more relaxed than previously, I know the chances are small but is it worth any risk...hmmm
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   Old Thread  #9 6 Oct 2020 at 10.26am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #8
Not sure how things are organized there, never been, but if there is a food package included and they expect you to come and eat it away from your rods than surely it is not up to anglers to pack everything down for each meal? I understand if something like this happens on drive&survive it is completely different kind of game but even then it can probably be handled better by owners than this situation. Police should be called the minute they found out, for all we know car/van etc with all the gear could still be somewhere near by... Just telling angler to go home makes absolutely no sense however you look at it. Made me think about my last trip with food package... will opt for delivery to my swim now for sure on some waters.
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   Old Thread  #8 6 Oct 2020 at 10.16am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
Got in with a ladder Cretelakes are saying after viewing some cctv

Iíve fished there and itís somewhere I would class as Ďsecureí. Nowhere is ever 100% secure with a guarantee that nothing will happen. If a thief is determined enough then they would find a way 😡

The fact Cretelakes havenít even called the police is disgusting and should of been the first thing they did once they were made aware of the thefts. You would obviously expect your gear to still be there when you get back but I donít get the part where heís trying to lay blame on crete saying itís not on their website about leaving gear unattended is at owners risk? Everyone is surly responsible for their own stuff, but like I said Iíd expect my stuff to be where I left it when I came back from breakfast/dinner 😡

Something is definitely fishy about it all and if it turned out to be an inside job then it wouldnít surprise me. 2 lots of gear supposedly packed down and taken through the hole in the fence or up a ladder and over the fence somewhere that just happens to not be covered by the cctv 🤔🤔

Hopefully for the anglers involved they get to the bottom of it all either way and hopefully get their gear back or insurance pays them out so they are not off the bank for to long 🤞🏻🤞🏻
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   Old Thread  #7 6 Oct 2020 at 9.12am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
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I expect Tesco to call the police!
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   Old Thread  #6 6 Oct 2020 at 9.11am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #5
Depends if itís advertised as a secure site I suppose?

The facts itís an all inclusive fishery you would like to think when you go for dinner your kit is still there when you return.......
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   Old Thread  #5 6 Oct 2020 at 8.57am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
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Why should Crete Lakes help though? Is that not a bit like saying if you left your car parked in Tesco Carpark unlocked, and it gets nicked that they should buy him a new car?!?
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   Old Thread  #4 6 Oct 2020 at 7.52am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
Stinks of an inside job, staff were the only people to visit his swim and no obvious path through the foliage where the fence was down.

Unfortunately if Crete Lakes don't help him, (and it sounds like they have hung him out to dry) he is screwed....even if he had the right cover under his Insurance policy the fact that he left it unattended would probably declare any claim void.
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   Old Thread  #3 6 Oct 2020 at 6.30am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #1
first rule... when you are robbed call local police... there is not much they can do normally but it can not hurt... if nothing else it comes on their radar if it happens a lot... nobody reporting it can give a false sense of security...
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   Old Thread  #2 6 Oct 2020 at 5.48am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
Terrible, reeling in for some dinner thinking your gear is secure
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   Old Thread  #1 6 Oct 2020 at 4.38am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
Seen on FB some angler had all his gear stolen at Crete lakes along with another angler......

My Crete Lakes disaster!

I love this sport, but the events of the past trip has completely taken it out of me!
to the point where I'm not sure if I will cast a rod again 😢

What should be a great post about the amazing time I had at Crete Lakes is sadly one of loss, distrust and dishonesty!

One of the reasons we chose to fish Crete Lakes, was the fact the website stated how secure and safe it was, but sadly nothing could be further from the truth!

While at dinner on Thursday evening all my gear was stolen!

The fence had been damaged in the storms but not repaired and itís there that the theives are meant to have gained entry.

They knew exactly the time to strike and what they were after, yet nobody other than staff had been in my swim all trip and you couldnít see my set up from the other side of the fence!

The most saddening fact is how itís all been handled, as after being told by the owner to go home and heíll talk to me about the next steps on money, I now know he was actually trying to get me off the lakes as he simply wasn't interested.

There is nowhere on the website that states your gear is being left at your own risk, had I known it was not secure I wouldnít have wasted my money!

strangley enough they are now doing food deliveries to the swims ! 😡

Even worse, after promising to call the police, Iíve been told this still hasnít happened! so no crime number to even follow up.

what would you do ???

all my carpy and Facebook friends can you please please please share this and get this circulating .....every little helps
I truly hope this can not happen to anybody else whilst out there.

p.s my gear was not the only set up to be taken 😢😢😢 Graeme Childs sadly also fell victim and all his rod set up amongst other things taken......

I'm just simply gutted 😢
in the pic is the fencing thats down behind lake 3 and where I was.
apparently they knew nothing about it!!
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