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   Basic leadcore question
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   Old Thread  #45 20 Jul 2020 at 1.48pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #41
That's my plan to be honest Mark. The longer I fish the venue the less of a problem this should be as hopefully I'll get a reasonable understanding of the bottom in various areas. The main reason for this was around my first year where I anticipate moving a fair amount on to showing fish and probably in to new swims/areas.

That being said I fished a longer session there for the first time on Friday (24 hours) and decided to sacrifice the start of the session using the lead. 1 hour late, 65 kilos of weed and no clear spots! PVA bags did their job though as managed to land a small one to get off of the mark
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   Old Thread  #44 18 Jul 2020 at 2.41pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #43
That's what I was thinking too, especially when you consider that the line will be stretched when it gets nicked therefore making it thinner
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   Old Thread  #43 18 Jul 2020 at 1.01pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #39
ĎíIf the 15lb line is nicked say a quarter of the way through, you still have around 12lb of breaking strain.
Basically that damage is proportionate to the strain.íí

I donít agree with that , Iíve found once a mainline is Ďnickedí it can tear from that point and will rip apart , the strength is gone from the line if itís been damaged , Iíve pulled line 15lb 0.38 between my hands where it had a small nick and parted like cotton not long ago
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   Old Thread  #42 18 Jul 2020 at 12.10pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #39
The reason for leadcores use was it wasn't monofilament line so offered an advantage at the time, through it's use the other benefits came to light, weight, abrasive & anti-tangle qualities etc.

I used it extensively in the very early nineties to great effect in a way Hyperloop is saying, strong and solid as I possibly could but once many were using it I stopped, like many aspects of our angling by the time it filters down not much thought is given to the reasons for using something.
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   Old Thread  #41 18 Jul 2020 at 12.04pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #23
If you are not able to have a quick lead about in some areas just to get an idea of whats out there then your probably better off just fishing solid bags at shows.

Maybe just before you leave have a lead about the area where they have been showing and gradually build a picture of the areas they use/like/feed for future use.

Not sure how a leader will help in the way your fishing until you understand a bit more about the situation you face, possibly a little section at the lead end to take the strain when playing fish if using a rotary rig?
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   Old Thread  #40 18 Jul 2020 at 11.45am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #39
You wonít be putting Ďextreme pressureí on knots playing a fish.
Use a set of scales a few rod lengths away and bend into it as you would a fish, Doubt itíll exceed about 6lb as energy is lost to negative leverage and absorption of the blank and stretch of the mono.

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   Old Thread  #39 18 Jul 2020 at 9.08am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #38
I'm like you, I don't buy the fluorocarbon thing either.

I have looked in clear water at fluorocarbon line above the lakebed, you may not be able to see the fluorocarbon itself, but over a gravel and sand bottom, you could see a blurry line shadow moving in the wind and surface chop.

I think I know where the leadcore protection came from, I've been carp fishing for 30 years😱, and I I found that with helicopter set-ups, a hooklink swivel running on the mainline could wear through and abrade it.
The answer back in the early 1990's was to use a leader or tubing to protect the mainline, Tim Paisley mentions both versions in his book Big Carp.
Then along came Leadcore Flyline. The protection that provided, but it was thick, as it would be when used for fly fishing.
Then somehow, and I think it was through Terry Hearn, on Yateley, he was fishing standard and ring swivels on helicopter rigs and discovered the same about abrasion, so started using the current versions of braided leadcore.

However as we have 'progressed', there are various heli beads that allow us to fish naked, from the original Cox and Rawle beach beads (if you do decide to try this link, do NOT glue them, and have the open bead nearest the rod tip) to other dedicated carp brands. Some can be fished with leaders, others not.


Obviously I don't like leadcore, I think my dislike is well commented, and think the safe length it can be used at is no more than 6inches, 150mm. In which case why use it at all when we have the helibeads as mentioned above?
At any range above 40-50 metres the line by the end tackle will be running along the lakebed, the secondary supposed reason for leadcore.
The bans on leadcore at various fisheries are well known, from Keith Moors in France to others in UK, and I personally think it should be accepted as banned by all anglers.


I definitely agree mono can be damaged, but I think many would be surprised how damaged it can get and still land a fish.
If the 15lb line is nicked say a quarter of the way through, you still have around 12lb of breaking strain.
Basically that damage is proportionate to the strain.
I was fishing at Ardleigh when I hooked a fish that ran around a buoy chain. I was on my leadcore setup, yet it was the mainline that was rubbing against the chain. Around 10metres of line was fragged, shaved by rust steel and whatever was on the chain. The carp was only 18lb but it was landed.

I honestly don't know how often we get broken off well above the lead in weed, I personally think this is where our knots go, no matter how well tied. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, as lilies can have some rough tough stalks and roots and mussels and snails causing abrasion on the line.

I know in my irresponsible or maybe unknowledgeable past, I wasn't sure how to play fish through snags, weed and lilies, so ended up pulling for a break when they got stuck totally. I'm sure that it was the knot that gave, by the 'curly wurly' and flattened end that was left. I believe a line broken on the mainline tends to be a straight 'stretched' snap, and the line is still circular.

That last little bit of line near the lead, definitely the most damaged, from the run ring running up and down it, the lead hitting or rubbing on it, to the extreme pressure we put on the knot every time we play a fish.
My view of that is to check it regularly, although again I agree a leader can reduce the damage, or more correctly, take more abuse.

Even with that, we should be checking our knots and that last little bit of line near the end tackle anyway.
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   Old Thread  #38 16 Jul 2020 at 4.35pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #35
Top post Nick... itís nice to see someone proving their points instead of throwing their toys out of the pram because someone disagrees with them.

I donít buy into the fluro being invisible thing. I really donít think itís important, especially in weed where you could get away with using 100lb fluorescent sea line! Theyíre brushing into weed and debris non stop. If a fish spooks off my line half way to the spot I couldnít care less. I want the last few yards pinned down and presented, the rest is largely irrelevant.

Rightly said, leadcore lengths are probably seldom long enough to act as a genuine rubbing leader. I still believe that they serve a purpose in protecting the line close to the end game though.
A mono is easily damaged and while it may be more than strong enough at the knot, a small knick will weaken it significantly. A leader would prevent that happening and imo, the last few meters are often the most susceptible to damage.

Good point re. the helicopter. I get very narrow minded with that and havenít used anything other than a helicopter for YEARS. I forget that this is far from a given.
As much as I donít agree with leaders being used with clips or inlines I still stand by the opinion that bare line is equally as likely to tether a fish in weed, should it have been cut off.

I still maintain that my sole aim is to prevent cut offs, by using strong gear and I feel that leadcore helps with this, to some extent.
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   Old Thread  #37 16 Jul 2020 at 9.53am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
imo the lengths of leadcore that can be used for heli rigs are not long enough for use as rubbing/snag leaders as invariably the line will get cut above the leadcore like nick says.

Used in sensible situations like hyperloop is saying leadcore and a heli rig and strong mainline gives a very good chance of landing the fish without any line failures

Imo a rubbing or snag leader needs to be longer and when i have needed them on some french venues i have used heavy mono leaders usually slightly longer than casting leaders tied to either 18-20 lb mainline or 40lb braid which has always worked for me.
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   Old Thread  #36 16 Jul 2020 at 9.22am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #35
Great Post. Should I be fishing here like this is the first question to ask.
Last paragraph says all that needs to be said about leadcore. Must get in a plug for Korda no trace beads, they really are an essential fish safety device.
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   Old Thread  #35 16 Jul 2020 at 8.54am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #34
Mate,
Nice sensible discussion this, and I think we agree with each other about fish safety, just not 100% on the use of leaders, or maybe we do, but can't quite find the right words.


Like you, I test my knots, I have no worries about them. I know they will hold. I have broken hooks over a snag or rubbing leader to mainline knot going.

It is in weedy or snaggy waters that I don't think leaders should be used, and I do think we sometimes use them without thinking. Fluorocarbon over weed, or with mega tight lines because 'fluorocarbon is less visible' in water, yet it still casts a shadow and can be felt. Add to that the leadcore debate, shockleaders etc.

Mainline strength, you aren't going to use 8-10lb line in weed, you would go up to 15-18lb, many of which while rated at 18lb, will be 20lb plus. A straight through mainline in that strength should not give at all.

If you need higher breaking strain or abrasion resistance to haul the fish out, or protect the line against damage, As you say is it appropriate to be fishing there?




As you and me have both said, with leaders you can prevent 'cut-offs', my experience on the reservoir proves this, but I have a big 'but' from the time years ago when I was using leadcore.

Suffolk Water Park is weedy in places, severe thick weed, but also has a few serious gravel bars, with massive chunks of flint on them.

*
I had a run that as I hit the run the whole lot went, I had been cut-off on the mainline above the leadcore. The fish was left trailing the whole lot. Where does it go with that lot? Rig, leadcore with or without lead. I had been using a leadcore set-up with a running lead.


*
It is this incident that prompted me to start my experiments on leadcore and its safety in fishing.
The result was that leadcore should only be used in a helicopter set up. It should be as short a length as possible. The beads, the rig must be able to be ejected should there be a break off. Do NOT eject the lead.






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   Old Thread  #34 15 Jul 2020 at 11.19pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #33
I donít think the knot should ever be the focus though. No knot should give in an angling situation if you are using appropriate gear.
I canít remember ever having a knot go on me, especially not on the mainline.

If you are having knots fail, or even consider it a worry, then Iíd question whether it was appropriate to be fishing in demanding situations like amongst weed... Thatís absolute basic stuff, imo. (Not you personally Nick, obviously)

The main reason fish end up trailing line/leaders/anything, imo, is because of cut offs. A leader will go some way to preventing this... far more than straight through mainline ever will.
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   Old Thread  #33 15 Jul 2020 at 5.29pm Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #31
I think the strongest component going is straight through mainline.

Any time you add a knot to the equation, like from mainline to leader you are adding an additional weak point, and in my experience, the knot that gives is the closest knot to the rod tip.

Straight through mainline doesn't seem to tangle up if the knot gives, simply because none is trailing; the fish is only carrying a rig, and again, from personal experiences, something I am sure Ken T can back me up on, the hook can be ejected.

Saying that, and Yonny has seen the pics, on the reservoir with some seriously large concrete blocks (not snags), I used a leader to cope with rubbing on the concrete blocks, roadway and culvert drains below water level. I did get in a couple of fish that had run around bridge supports where the 20lb Amnesia leader had been shaved, and also broke a couple of hooks at the bend that I pulled into blocks.
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   Old Thread  #32 15 Jul 2020 at 10.49am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #31
Totally agree.
The safest rig/set-up is the one that lands the fish imo.
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   Old Thread  #31 15 Jul 2020 at 10.42am Login so you can post / reply  Register so you can join in!
In reply to Post #26
Got to disagree with that Nick. In a weedy water I want the strongest components going, in order to prevent what is ultimately going to cause the damage, and thatís getting cut off/snapped up. Preventing the problem at source is surely preferable to mitigating once itís happened?

Iíd also argue that straight man line has equally as much chance of getting caught up in weed and tethering as a leader does.
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