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In reply to Post #73
Thanks for the considered response 
I had not considered the fat content of the baby milk, will have a look tonight.
Mind you I imagine vitamealo is high fat too which most include in a birdy/milk pro bait. I think the fat content (added to baby milk) is vegetable rather than milk fat as skim milk powder is one of the main constituents so it might at least not solidify completely.
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In reply to Post #68
So basically you are saying get your protein/nutrition requirements from a quality fishmeal source with a degree of solubility and bulk it out with other functional ingredients to get it to roll?
Yes basically, but also keep an eye on things like hardness of finished baits, fat content, density, attraction and price. For instance, baby powders are very high in fat, which can be both good and bad. For instance, if you rate the attraction powers of fish oils above those of cow fat you should keep baby powders low or out completely. If you plan on using it in winter time, they'll solidify and you should consider skipping them as well.
Btw. it makes little sense comparing blood powder and robin red imo. They are two totally different meals with completely different purposes. Robin red wont harden nor bind a bait, it's main purpose is to attract. Blood powder is usually added to harden a bait, and how attractive it is questionable depending on who you ask. I personally think it's nice in quantities <5%, but don't like it at higher levels.
What's important is that there are many ways to achieve the same things, and one approach can be as good as another. However, the cheaper you can achieve the same quality the more free you are to use the amounts needed at any given time, and that will catch you more fish in the long run.
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In reply to Post #69
Sorry Rob, didn't intend to de-rail the thread.
This topic has been done to death though. In my opinion the definitive recipe was put up by Smurf ages ago so don't see why we need another one?
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In reply to Post #70
IMO rr is more attractive, but blood is slightly attractive and has other quailties to it 
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In reply to Post #61
Garlic hemp almost sounds good enough to eat. Good luck with your trip. Ps don't forget the chilli!!!
The Tesco i work at doesn't sell the Natco garlic powder, i had a look tonight. 
I am getting the impression we need a bait buff to help us decide on the binder(s)/hardener(s) to use. Prices from CC Moore for 1kg. Blood plasma £7.99. WPC £12.99. Blood £3.49.
Personally in my bait i want my 'goodies' to make the bait attractive. The pre-dig, Robin Red, garlic etc. So blood plasma is in my mix solely to bind/harden and with a quite low recommended inclusion level i can use less allowing room for more 'goodies.'
Blood powder has better benefits than rr. Do you mean robin red?
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In reply to Post #68
Could we get back to the recipe please
I think the blood and WPC should be included, due to both being good ingredients for BOTH different reasons,
The blood imo should be in there just for the fish attractiveness of it and it has better benefits that RR
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In reply to Post #66
So basically you are saying get your protein/nutrition requirements from a quality fishmeal source with a degree of solubility and bulk it out with other functional ingredients to get it to roll?
What is your view on baby milk powders, being both soluble in the extreme and providing good nutrition and a boosted vit/min content? I don't use refined milks in my fishmeal either but have been up to now in my winter bait but am considering using the above instead.
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In reply to Post #63
Sure its as much a matter of function, but whats the function?
Semi soluable gelling agent with a nutritional value or a largely soluable attractor that aids in hardening the bait?
I agree with Ulrik If the mix is being pared down on costs, WPC or plasma gel can be substituted with cheaper products that will do the job just as well.
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In reply to Post #65
Yeah, I meant that I would totally skip concentrated milk proteins like whey, casein etc. in a bait that already have such a high protein content and also up the predigested and lower the Vitamealo.
All of the functional milk proteins can be easily substituted using much cheaper and equally function ingredients (for the that function). For instance, whey gel binds and hardens, but so does gluten and blood powder together. 30 mesh hardens a bait, but no more than polenta or coarse rice or semo flour, costing a fraction... some people believe that carp love the taste of milk proteins, if you're one of those go for it. I don't put particular high faith in the attraction properties of most milks - maybe with the exception of calcium caseinate, and that's only because Hutchie have praised it no end. Even Rod attributed the effectiveness of CaCas to it being soluble, not necessarily because of it's inherent taste/smell.
Vitamealo is most often used to increase the solubility of a bait, i.e. increasing the leakage of food signals.
I haven't been able to do a fair comparison between milk powders like Vitamealo and predigested fish meal, as the lakes I fish these days are extremely low stocked with few takes per season. But my intuition and general experience with bait making tells me that a soluble predigested would beat Vitamealo easily. I plan to try using 20% predigested. Can't see why it should only be used at such low levels - unless of course you need a hard insoluble (less attractive) bait for some specific purpose.
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In reply to Post #64
I think he means
100g Pre digest
75g Vitamealo
rather than the other way round.
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In reply to Post #55
Wouldn't bother with low levels of milk proteins with all that fish protein in already and I would up the predigested to at least 10% at the cost of Vitamealo. It's a question of solubility and I'd rather have that from predigested fish meal than from milk powders.
Do you mean you would leave out the vitamealo and up the pre digest, or lower the milk to get the extra fish in?
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We seem to be having trouble deciding between blood powder, blood plasma, and WPC.
Blood powder is the cheapest. And from reading seems to have a better protein content of the 3. But being a bit of a noddy, the amino acid profiles are double dutch to me.
Plasma powder seem expensive and i dont know much about it, but seems to be only available in a kilo. So is the blood powder, but it is half the price.
WPC seem excellent to, but is the most expensive of the 3. Im wondering if we need 2 or even 3 hardeners in our bait, and could get away with just the one. Or will the bait be a better one using 2 or 3?
My preference would be to use just blood powder, as i feel we are using it as a functional ingredient more than trying to get protein, or amino profiles from it, which i feel are coming from the fishmeals, and other ingredients.
Any thoughts? bearing in mind that with the WPC or blood plasma the cost of the ingredients is about £6-7 more, per 10kg mix, with 650g left over, if you see what i mean.
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In reply to Post #55
Interesting thoughts Ulrik
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In reply to Post #57
@ Frenzy, you mean you haven't worked your way through those bags of chilli and garlic yet??!!
lol..no mate...but i have been trying.
Ive got Mar Peche in a few wks time, so ive been giving the Hemp a bit of Garlic treatment...!!!
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I love the smell of garlic and if i had enough time i would serious consider adding some to a bolie mix. Im currently using the source as i love the meaty, bbq smell and have been really since ive been fishing for 5ish years. Nash amber is a nice strawberry smell and i have heard Jason from A-baits uses some sort of amber strawberry in one of his mixes, i may have to get on A-baits next season.
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Bait